It takes 5 people to do M+, it takes 20 people to do Mythic Raiding. If you don’t make Mythic Raiding mean something, no one will do it. That’s been proven time and time again. /facepalm.
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Umm raid and M+ are supposed to both be equal in terms of progression. But ya ok… you can have your opinion. Just that your opinion is wrong.
[quote=“Lërne-zuljin, post:728, topic:652040, full:true”]
I think that’s why it provides 226 gear?
And isn’t like challenge modes where just do it for cosmetics?
And infinite scalers will more harshly force comp stacking, again by definition. It HAS to work that way since it’s infinite and classes are not the same.
You could do this with Warfronts or MoP scenarios or anything too and make them the hardest. Or maybe world bosses.
So they draw a line at +15 and call it done.
- you havent answered the question. Would you and 4 friends be able to complete this +28 key? or would it be too hard for your group of highly skilled Mythic raiders?
There are reasons to do keys of that level if they are possible. Some players do it because they like to challenge themselves, some other players do it for the online Clout and some more players do it for fun.
There are no reason why blizzard decided to lock the loot at a +15. There are ways to improve this system to let players that like this content see progression in their characters
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Scaling dynamic content makes for complex interactions, and isn’t just hitting a target dummy harder.
If blizzard thinks this way, it should publicly state it so this debate can end. Until then, I believe there is a way to improve the game with small changes to the systems in place for PvP and M+ gearing itemization, so that players of all kind can progress with similar lethality and enjoy the intensely challenging content they decide to enjoy (at comparable rates).
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Ya it takes 5 people, meaning that each person has a much bigger impact on the success of the key. A raid has 20 people which means each individual has less contribution to the success.
Just like a 128 vs 128 first person shoot. Even if a world class player joins the game, he/she will have almost no impact on the result of the game.
If giving equal loot to M+/raid/PVP will cause players not to do one of those activities maybe it’s time to redesign that activity rather than causing a broken imbalance in the other two thirds of the game.
For example if having 20 people is causing such a problem for raids, that people are not motivated to do them, then make all raids 10 man. I recall 10 mans were much easier to organize and more enjoyable to play than the larger raids.
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I feel their intent is there are multiple gearing paths to 226 gear (mythic+/raid/PvP) but at the end of the day this is World of Warcraft not world of mythic+/raid/PvP craft.
Stats and items are what they are and the players can mix and match however they like.
Segregating all of the content so players are encouraged to stay in their silo is basically the opposite of an mmorpg.
For better or worse.
This comment just sounds against change for the sake of change. “Warcraft” is the game, we don’t need to shift the conversation into monikers. The game can always be improved, and we should always be open minded to solutions.
There are ways to retain content dominance for a favored game mode, and still have lateral fluidity as needed. I’d like to see a model that allows for players that dislike certain content, to not be penalized within the high achieving portions of their decided content.
I don’t think making gear behave differently depending on what loading screen you saw prior to zoning into a piece of content is good design in an mmorpg.
It’s a reason I also hate the entire idea of PvP talents when I feel they should be incorporated into the base classes.
Others obviously disagree which is fine. Neither is an “improvement” because that term is not universal it depends on your perspective.
This is already true for world first raiders and even CE. The number of progression guardian druid tanks is much to be desired.
That being said a 20+ has been completed by every spec in the game and the mythic raid has been completed by every spec in the game. A gaurdian druid was garbage at both in BFA. This game isn’t balanced anywhere with respect to class design.
Also, blizzard does balance the MDI around ~20+ keys, so there’s that.
This is our core disagrement.
Things can be generally understood to be improvements on systems, and you should always try to do that. “Good Enough” is a terrible mentality for entertainment systems that millions engage with and enjoy.
What one person finds as an improvement someone else finds as a mistake.
This has happened with every single expansion.
For example there are many people who felt creating a group finder system was an abomination of the genre and hate everything to do with it. Others love it as way to increase their accessibility to content.
One change viewed vastly different.
This is off topic though.
And how does one improve the system (or looking back, harm it and learn from it) if no changes are permitted in the first place? It doesn’t have to be the rigidity that exists now, of “It’s mine, don’t change it”.
giving only raiders 233/OPtrinkets/OPweapons is design flaw, when the design intent is for 3 parallel paths of progression.
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Things change all the time though lol.
2 expansions ago dungeons never gave heroic (before mythic) level gear ever.
Or things like emissaries and weekly events giving gear.
“Learning” from something also implies an opinion on if something was good or not.
It’s cycled around a few times.
Wrath had final boss extra item levels.
Then it went away.
Then it came back in WoD.
Then it went away again.
Then it came back in BFA.
There’s tons of voiced opinions here on what is imperfect, and should be sought to improve.
If that conversation is not allowed to progress, you’re stuck with whatever system you’re at. The system in place should be actively sought to improve. The messaging in this thread is clear that it implies three progression paths. We’ve outlined the psychology of players and player outcomes with the current system in place, as it relates to content forcing. We’ve outlined the mathematics on the progression systems and the rate, and I don’t see it lining up with the messaging. I’m hopeful things will be considered in the weeks ahead…
And what is even the point of dropping higher ilvl gear and OP trinkets/weapons from the last boss? At this point progression has completely ended and better loot does nothing for raid, it only impacts the competitive fairness and enjoyment of M+ and PvP.
There are a million voiced opinions about everything. That doesn’t make them useful or things to actively design to by any means.
Keep making the arguments of course if you feel strongly about. That’s part of why the forums exist after all.
Their case seems to be they feel killing the final 2 bosses of a raid, which are always large step changes in difficulty from the rest (especially last boss), which requires maintaining and scheduling 20 people on the same page for months and for hundreds of wipes, on a static difficulty, is more worthwhile of a bump in a rewards than other content.
And only for those few slots on the loot table.
Obviously others feel differently and want their 2-3 slots of 233 gear from whatever would be deemed a similar challenge in either an arbitrary + value on an infinite scaling system or a matchmaking rating against other players.
Because wiping 400 times on a static difficulty final boss then sharding the loot in an RPG kind sucks?
Aka see Ghuun and Jaina.
The key here being static difficulty and not just ramping up another 10% over and over forever.