I love classic, but the initial spike it subs it caused was WAY higher then the playerbase that stuck around.
I played on Whitemane and even with many layers we still had 20K queues at launch. Just immense hype and people playing.
My friends list exploded with 20+ people, some RL friends, I haven’t seen in years all playing classic. Was amazing.
Fast forward a year and no servers have layers. Only 2-3 have a minor queue only at prime time. Many servers are completely 1 sided dead already. And of all the people on my friends list that came back only 2 still play classic.
So using classic design as a basis for anything on the longevity of the game i don’t feel is a great idea.
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No one gearing method should make all others look worthless. The game becomes lopsided and incomplete.
Mythic+ is easier than Heroic Raiding as there are probably more people who completed 15s than were able to kill Heroic Nzoth.
And someone already did the math that doing/completing ten 14+ dungeons a week will get you mythic ilvl twice as fast as you could in BfA from M+ alone.
Oh, and btw, no matter how many times you do heroic raiding in a week - you’ll never be mythic ilvl if all you do is heroic raid.
I love how people only take one aspect of the loot system (comparing heroic raid to only the end dungeon chest) to make their analysis. Shows you how they’re skewing data or cherry-picking to try and add validity to their post.
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Grinding mythics endlessly is stupid. Getting upgrade once a week is better and more balanced compared to raids
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It’s just gear, who cares.
LOL
That attempt to act like Herioc Nzoth is not rolling your face on a Keyboard.
Mythic raids is designed for like the top 5 to say 10% of the population. If you werent part of that group in BFA you aint gonna miss it in Shadowlands. Yes Mythic+ dungeons catered to a wider population, but face the facts it was never intended to expand that top group beyond 10%.
If you liked the rewards so much and want to keep getting them, join an organized mythic raiding guild.
You can still do dungeon and get approo gear. Not seeing the issue?
Here is a wild thought, just play the game at the pace you want and not care what other people are doing? It’s not raid or die, its raid if you want the best rewards, as it should be and always has been. Want the cool unique mounts from each raid, you have to clear the mythic raid.
I also enjoy mythic+ but there is 0 debate raiding is harder. Sure the content on high keys requires more skillful execution, but coorditading a large group of people to not only be online at a specific time, but also execute mechanics is a significantly higher time investment. Thus, should reward better gear.
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Oh damn that was a big woof. I’m not claiming that classic design is better. I understand that classic hype was fueled by rose tinted goggles. People want the magic sense of WoW from 16 years ago. The only problem is to get that sense you would need a time machine. As it’s just not possible in today’s gaming industry. Times have changed and gamers have changed.
All I am saying is that it’s obvious that subs are down. Look at every Tuesday all the dead servers they are merging together. That is not a sign of a growing thriving community. Do I have a graph to show you? No because blizzavision has been hiding that train wreck for years.
I remember my realm having a huge party in org for every million we subs the game got. I remember 9 mil people saying we wouldn’t make it to 10 mil boom we hit 10 now we are at 12. Mil Org was on fire, if it had a roof it would have gotten blown off. I remember blizzard always showing off their sub count. I remember Ghostcrawler posting in forums almost daily. Say what you want about the guy but he wasn’t afraid of being in contact with the players.
Compare that to WoW of today and the developers run away at the sight of the players. Just a huge disconnect between what players want, and what the developers end up doing. It’s a shame.
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Some truth here on communication, but sub count stuff and attributing it to various design choices is always hokey to me.
Is the expectation that if every design choice was somehow perfect we would still be climbing in subs for 16 straight years?
Is the reason EQ doesn’t have as many subs as it did at its prime the same? Based on design decisions?
Also how does the old eastern market payment system of “pay $2 for 10 hours of game time and count as a full sub” that was used to pump subs up impact it?
Basically all I’m saying is subs of the same game would be down from their peak regardless. That of course doesn’t mean the game can’t be better.
I’m just saying Is we are not dealing with the same Blizzard. Activision took control in 2008 you can directly see the result of that impact. By the end of wrath WoW was becoming unrecognizable. I think the end of realms being realms and patching them together was one of the worst decisions ever made.
I just feel like it was different and one could almost make a case as if the developers are making moves out of spite. Ion was literally boo’d on stage at blizcon in 2019 in regard to Pathfinder. It was quite clear that the group of hardcore wow players in the room in unison didn’t enjoy Pathfinder. (Now I know a crowd at blizcon do not represent all players of this game but these are most likely people that love this game and have played it for quite a while.)
Now SL is coming out and we can see the hot new exclusive feature is, yup you guessed it Pathfinder. Now it is true we don’t quite know how it’s going to work out. Will it be on some dumb time metric blocker or will it be super simple and easy to complete within a few months? We don’t know. All I do know is that it’s back in full swing despite the general backlash.
Its not even exclusively a wow thing look at all their other games. Diablo 3 was a train wreck. Diablo mobile, because don’t we all have phones? Look at how far Overwatch has dropped. Let’s ask the pro players at HoTS how they are feeling about big daddy Blizavision right about now. Look how great WC3 reforged turned out. It’s just mess after mess after mess.
I know you hate numbers but it was stated that in legion WoW hit 7mil again. Which was huge. Now I’m not saying if blizzard did everything perfect retail would be at 20 mil or anything crazy. MMORPG’s are not as popular as they once were. They are a dying breed forsure. But if they could manage a 7mil playerbase in 2018 I’m sure they could maintain a 5-7 mil consistent player base if they didn’t seem hell bent on driving players away in droves.
Thinking that timing a 15 is anything but rolling your face on a keyboard is hilarious.
Then again you’re posting on a Classic toon which is literally the easiest content in WoW with laughable bosses that had like one mechanic.
You people keep acting like they are removing mythic + (I wish they would). ALL they are doing is bringing the rewards inline with the rest of the game.
RELAX and stop spreading false information.
So is mythic or die. Make heroics and random battlegrounds great again.
Oh I don’t disagree, M15s are also easy.
I don’t play this game for PVE not Retail not Classic. I play for PVP, and when Forced to do PVE (like BFA) its not hard, and its laughable that people act like it is.
I never really tried Mythic raiding (outside of pugging the first few, again EZ), went 6/8 in Herioc DS, and like 5 bosses in MGSV Herioc, but thats about the hardest “Raiding” I have ever done. Not really my thing, which works because new Herioc is easy.
I don’t understand your point then.
You have very little Heroic Raiding experience
You say you don’t really Raid
You say M15’s are easy
You say Heroic Raiding is easy
So you essentially added nothing to this conversation.
Yeah, Classic Player… sounds about right.
Plus it might make having a guild more lucrative again.
Hmmm, I think maybe its you that has less raiding experience.
The raids I just mentioned were old Herioc Raids IE Mythic raids now.
I have done pretty much every Legion Herioc, and did Uldir, and most of BoD before going to classic, came back and Knocked out Nyalotha quickly.
Did I do it tons of times? No, with the new LFG system I pinpointed bosses after the initial kill.
I thought my point was pretty clear, I am here as someone who doesn’t care about PVE, who doesn’t WORK to push raids, who doesn’t work to do 15s, they are just that Ez.
Its funny, as usually the Dragonslayers argue, in chat about how hard the raid is, and how worthless pvp is. Thats 9 times out of 10 the reason I get AOTC, they say "You cant, so I waste 3-5 hours getting AOTC, and then tell them to get 1600 and never hear from them again :).
I dont really like doing M+ either, but I can stomach it a lot more than raiding.
Raid or Die is stupid, I agree.
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I raided entirely through Vanilla, TBC, end of WoD and all the way to current from there. I think you have less experience than me.
When did you do Nya? With a group that carried and you had 100+ corruption gear on? What an accomplishment!
The original point of this post was that M+ gear gives worse gear than Heroic raiding (which is false because weekly chest for clearing 15’s gives higher rewards than heroic raiding can ever get) and their premise is to why M+15’s should give better gear is that M+15’s are harder (which is also false).
You just staying useless stuff of “heroic raiding is easy” and “M+15 is easy” does nothing because you basically added nothing to conversation. When trying to measure one against the other, you added 5 lbs to both sides. That’s useless banter.
Also, it’s stupid to say that it’s becoming “Raid or Die”. What is different now vs SL? After several weeks the gear would still be mythic raiders first (because of final bosses), M+15 players second (because of weekly chest), heroic raiders third.
I ask you: how is that different in BfA? How is that different than Legion?
It’s not. And the fact that you and many other people here continue to act like it is, is utterly stupid, pointless, and false.