I mean.
I feel no empathy for Sylvanas, so w/e.
She killed Saurfang and ruined the Horde.
But tbh you’re all crazy if you think Blizzard will let anyone dominate a female character in any meaningful/harmful way.
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They will if it’s Sylvanas doing the dominating.
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Ion said that they will not do another WoD…there is going to be a 9.3
Ion says a lot of things…
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Nah Zul’jin is another great example. Awesome character.
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Everything is PoV. Even the interviews.
On a slightly different note IMO the current situation is once again proving how bad blizz is with feeling the timing and understanding the context.
Wall-o-text and random thoughts on a "redemption" story of Sylvanas
If I assume that the goal was to pivot Sylvanas away from the villain path (which begs the question why point out that she is just like the LK, but “seving the horde” kek, and take her there to begin with), then the timing fails IMO.
After the tree™ was burned, there was a brief moment that could be a first seed:
Killer Queen
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: When I sent you on this mission, I did not foresee this outcome.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Our attack was meant to end a war before it began…
Which might’ve been the moment of realisation that the info she was given is not for the goals she was expecting.
IMO the moment where it falls apart in the story we have happens a bit later.
Where Hope Dies
Nathanos Blightcaller: We must carry out the Dark Lady’s orders before we are overrun by these newly-invigorated elves.
There is one night elf in particular that we seek. You may remember her from our last venture into Darkshore. Lucky for you, she is already dead… so she should prove less troublesome than the living ones you’ve already encountered.
And this part, could’ve been the one where Sylvanas would see what was done to her, combine with the tree™ part of the story where the result went not as she (maybe) was promised, and take a different path.
Could she really take a different path with her soul trapped and all of that? Well, IMO yes, she was never caged with no options. And the reason for this would be the following things:
Ask CDev 2:
Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?
It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood’s increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.
Since there are such reports of this stuff, Sylvanas would’ve been well aware that the Light could be the path to regain some of her senses and emotions. There are different sources of the Light in the game, sure, but given death of Rezan, by that time there would be 2 really prominent. Uuna’s story points out light of A’dal, and that of a moonwell, likely meaning Elune.
So, add to the tree™ and it not going as it should, realization that Elune’s light might’ve been her path to a change she now severed, and here is a basis for some personal drama.
But even without Elune, she never bothered asking Liadrin or other for an audience with A’dal.
Speaking of A’dal, he is the one, who managed to prevent the soul of Bridenbrad (which was added into the canon story from the “easter egg” status). So, even if she would take a turn against the Jailer, she would not be doomed to fall into his hands. And on top of that, with Eyir still being alive, she could still have an option, assuming realisation of how things shape up, to seek for a way to shelder supposed “sisterhood” from the tragic fate.
(I would not be surprised if one of reasons to twist the original vision of the Light is to justify why this was not an option to Sylvanas)
Extra notes: I remember somewhere long ago Sylvanas smiling to orphans. And a few notes that gaveaway her care about somebody. Be it the blood elf starting story, or her plans to free the scourge. So, that was there originally. But…
Not sure my ideas are any better than what we have, but IMO the timing for how to unfold such story arc should’ve been in 8.0-8.2 timeframe to already start going. And it was not.
What I see now is a copy of Lady Waycrest story line. The entire Drustvar story is about showing one of her horrible action after another, be it directly what she does, or what she allowed the witches / drust to do. And in the very end the story goes like “but feeels! You must feel sorry for how somebody used her”. With my reaction being “at this point I simply do not care”.
And that’s what I have with Sylvanas story. At some point “reasons” excuses are just not worth to consider given the seed sawed on her path. There is a different topic of “who would judge her now”, etc., but it’s besides the point.
This could’ve been the story about her seeing how things fall apart as she tries to chase whatever is left. This could’ve been a chance to restore who she was in pre-Cata time. But I guess for the current devs it’s not relevant, as even Sylvanas is not allowed to be her true™ self.
However, there is nothing surprising in the fact that this all happens, because changes in the story direction leave a bunch of older themes or ideas just there unused. Example from the same Ask CDev 2:
What is the Argent Crusade’s relationship with the Forsaken, in light of Sylvanas’s recent actions?
Although the members of the Argent Crusade still stand by the Forsaken heroes who joined them in the battle against the Scourge, Sylvanas’s actions since the slaying of Arthas have deeply concerned the crusaders. They, along with certain members of the Ebon Blade, are now watching Sylvanas and the Forsaken very closely, as similarities between her and the Lich King are increasing in number by the day.
Which throughout the course of BfA amounted to nothing, because hey, if it’s possible to say there was next to no afterlife lore before Shadowlands, ignoring inconvenient lore a bit more is not a big deal, right? Who cares about consistency and stories working coherently with one another. It’s all just PoVs.
gl hf
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havent played at all this expansion, I thought that was the lich king, but some kind of afterlife version of it, because apparently thats where this game has gone now.
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Cross faction PvE comes to mind.
It’s a safe assumption that you’re not alone in that sentiment.
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I was right for the most part. I knew when the Uther questline was on the PTR that one half of Sylvanas soul would be involved somehow. With what they’ve done, I’m hoping that Sylvanas is gradually being made alive again. Her dealing with the effects of not being undead is suitable character development since it’s a change she’d have to adapt to. If it happens my opinion on this will turn around.
(This was posted on the “abuse survivor” thread and deleted for a naughty word that I thought I’d censored properly, but apparently not, and then the thread was locked. Reposting here with cleaned up language just to get the points out.)
The interpretation of Sylvanas as a survivor of abuse was most firmly held in the WC3-Wrath period. Her character took on a new direction around the time of Cata, probably due to behind-the-scenes changes in those in charge of the story. But her Cata version doesn’t contradict the interpretation as much as her BfA version does.
Just being raised as undead wasn’t the abuse metaphor. If she’d been raised as a free-willed undead and run off to do her own thing, I don’t think we’d see the abuse connection being made as much. It’s a combination of the fact that she was raised by the same guy who killed her, explicitly as punishment for causing him problems, and the fact that he then went on to mind-control her and force her to serve him against her will that really did it.
In Cata, per the undead starting experience, they were all explicitly given the choice to either serve her, do their own thing, or go back to being dead. In that sense, she was making sure that no one ever had to go through what she had.
I’ve always chalked those and the Dalaran mage thing up to “Stonetalon Garrosh syndrome,” where lack of communication caused a hole in the lore. I suspect someone wrote a quest using established tropes—“Your friend has become a zombie and now wants to eat your brains! How spooooooky!”—without realizing it didn’t actually fit WoW’s previous lore, and due to the general mess and overworkedness of the team during Cata, the quests made it to live. Then the devs had to try to explain it after the fact, so they came up with the “temporary frenzied state” thing, which I don’t believe has ever been seen in-game since then.
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I don’t understand how so many people excuse Sylvanas for what she’s done. She’s been villainous since vanilla, and it’s ramped up over time but much of it has been expected with her increase in abilities. She gave the order to make the plague, which you can see being used in experiments on civilians. She allowed for mindslaves such as Theresa to exist and didn’t interfere. Being a victim doesn’t mean that victimizing others should be allowed.
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It’s probably easier / better to not even think of Sylvanas as a single character anymore, and (for whatever fans of her remain) to just focus on specific aspects and ignore the rest. She can be WoW’s first NPC with a modular narrative!
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Because she had her soul stolen…
Yup that pretty much sums it up for me.
Her redemption is coming because she has been made whole again. Thus, the Ranger General we knew before her death in wcIII. She will be a Sylvanas we have not known in game for the duration of wow.
This isn’t redemption, it’s replacement.
Swapping out one Sylvanas for another only allows for them to salvage her name and face.
Though I suppose the overwhelming majority of players will still refer to it as such (either as shorthand or in misunderstanding).
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So did Arthas. Do you feel the same way about him?
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The cinematic was ok, but I am loving the reactions.
Way to go, Blizz! Stick it to them NEFPAs. Worgo fans. Human Alliance fans that clamor for Lordaeron. All of them who have been whining for years.
It is sooo awesome to see them leaping as if their panties are in a snit.
I dont know where we go from here. Maybe Baine just smashes her head with a Totem and we are done with her. But what ever may come- the tears from the Sylvanas haters are a satisfying deluge.
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Good for the goose and all that jazz. But yeah, if Sylvanas is getting redeemed, than I would say Arthas qualifies, much as I personally disagree with it.
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Yes actually, I wanted them both to get their souls back. Not a fan of heroes being turned into villains. Thus, also disliking what they are doing to Anduin. I had thought/hoped for redemption for Arthas and Sylvanas long ago. Then figured that blizz was never going to until I learned of the new expansions name shadowlands and its afterlife theme. Then I knew it was finally coming.
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They 100% didn’t think it’d go over well.
In a pre-Shadowlands interview, Ion Hazzikostas said this:
We know that particularly when navigating storylines involving beloved or hated characters, almost anything that we do, no matter which direction we take - Where does Sylvanas go? Which one of these many many paths awaits her? - we’re going to piss a good chunk of people off.
Steve Danuser posted this:
Christie Golden’s own posts also show preemptive apprehension, however they were in-regards to death threats which she received (utterly unacceptable that she - or any author - receive those for any circumstance), so I’m not going to link it in the interest of not derailing the conversation.
Point is, in a rare instance, Ion was right. No matter how this cinematic resolved, a lot of people were going to hate it. However, designing the story such that a large chunk of the playerbase would be upset? That was intentional. To hook people into their story, they shoved a narrative knife into the long-built fantasies (racial, faction, character) of their playerbase and twisted it. They focused this knife on one character, and she is, by far, the character who is most responsible in-universe for all the other wounds.
It just sucks that, of all the ways they could have resolved this, they chose to favor their own favorites over shepherding the expectations of the community. They chose the option that would upset the most players.
It’s not over, not yet. There’s a few options for Sylvanas that could be satisfying-ish. I’m privy to nuVanas to volunteer herself to Revendreth, or her wandering Azeroth alone and forgotten, a single soul trying to right her own wrongs. So long as she isn’t glorified at the end: no place of honor, no statue, no one thanking her, just a “You helped. Now, get lost.”
However, it’s clear that Blizzard cares more for playing with their toys than they do shepherding the thoughts of the community. People getting pissed at their decisions is the cost they paid to take our collective love of a fantasy universe for a joy ride.
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