Rage normalization kills warriors, SOD, and WoW

[Stormwolf-crusader-strike]

@Bigcreamy-illidan

Let me know how often you get to cast raptor strike, and what conditions need to be met for you to cast stormstrike, or lava lash.

Not gonna argue about Raptor strike the 3 second CD and the 30% Chance to reset the CD on it is pretty dumb.

As far as Shaman: Put all warrior weapon abilities on a 6 Second CD and we’ll talk.
(We would very quickly oom with SS… but it has a 6 second CD. As does Lava Lash, Shamans have no other activatable weapon attacks…just WF- which incidentally so do warriors on top of the rest of their kit…)

@Bigcreamy-illidan

Normalizing rage achieves one thing—it prevents warriors from being able to use abilities back-to-back, on each global cooldown.

No one else has that capacity in the first place, outside of hunters, because as I already said, their kit is dumb- and will very likely be adjusted because it’s achieving the same problem the Devs have with warrior rage gen.

[Dacapo-faerlina]

That is your take and while I don’t agree I can see your point of view. As it relates to other classes like Shaman, for example they have to balance stats and not just stack the highest str piece they get. Moreover both classes you mention are inherently weaker then warrior based on armor prophecies alone. Looking at it by just a pure spread sheet perspective similar to the argument you made just looking at abilities, cost, and GCD. Now when you take other factors into this equation. Like Execute the warrior continues to pull ahead. The only reason hunter is close to warrior has to do with off hand weapon damage reduction removed.

[Bakalmao-faerlina]

Never seen someone so correct or so based on the forums before.

[Saltheart-lone-wolf]

Dude, this is a standing ovation post. Really good commentary on the reality of playing Warrior if your not in a stacked PVE raid with all the correct buffs and support.

Based as it gets

The biggest fear all Warrior’s have is rage being nerfed to the point where you don’t know if you will be able to hit your GCD’s when they are up. It’s a terrible, clunky way to play the game. “I hope my next attack lands or I will just sit here and auto-attack until it does”

[Graoth-aegwynn]

Melee hunter will probably need a revisit when we hit 60. They don’t scale as well as warrior with better gear though. Hunter, historically speaking, has been a high dps class while levelling. Warrior, historically speaking, has been a high dps class only when they get fully geared. The fact that we’re not to endgame gear and we’re doing endgame damage is indicative that rage and dps is going to be an issue.

Rogue though probably is going to need a nerf soon. They also scale well with gear (though not AS well as warriors)

[Saltheart-lone-wolf]

@Graoth-aegwynn

Melee hunter will probably need a revisit when we hit 60. They don’t scale as well as warrior with better gear though

I think thats resonable, Rogue as well. It does not make sense to make major balance changes to melee right now. Level 60 changes a lot so it will just be adjusted again.

Giving ranged some love and punting on melee to Phase 4 is probably a good move, in a world where development resources are limited

[Graoth-aegwynn]

I think rage normalization is going to be a good thing ultimately. Reason why?

Let’s be honest. We’re probably getting titangripping. Like 80% chance we’re getting it. If dps is an issue NOW then dual wielding 2h weapons will only make it so much worse. Plus it will allow disc priests to actually be the amazing healers they were meant to be.

[Stormwolf-crusader-strike]

@Saltheart-lone-wolf

The biggest fear all Warrior’s have is rage being nerfed to the point where you don’t know if you will be able to hit your GCD’s when they are up. It’s a terrible, clunky way to play the game. “I hope my next attack lands or I will just sit here and auto-attack until it does”

Have you tried using a GCD every time its up on literally any other class?

(Hunters aside…everyone knows they’re broken.)

Shaman:
Stormstrike: 6 Sec CD
Lava Lash: 6 Sec CD
Shocks: 6 Sec CD and about 10% of total mana

We could throw in Magma Totem and Fire Nova in there to fill out the GCD usage but we’d be oom in about 20-30 seconds.

[Saltheart-lone-wolf]

Right but you have the option fire off your abilities in an efficient manner because you start the fight with the resource you need to cast them. Plus there are a lot of ways to manage your mana pool in a raid.

As it sits today 60 fury warriors will run Bloodthirst > Slam > Whirlwind on a cooldown rotation. The rage dumps are Heroic Strike and Hamstring when rage permits. If we don’t have rage to do Heroic Strikes or Hamstrings we sit on our hands and wait. That could be 3 GCDs into the fight if rage generation is a problem.

There is a way to normalize rage and not starve the Warrior. It’s just a concern Blizz can nail it. If we could hit our cooldown abilities, spam hamstring and occasionally pop in a heroic strike that would feel OK. Your effectively taking heroic strike spam off the table which will drop DPS substantially, without making it a game of wait to push any button.

Keep in mind this is in a raid with full buffs, proper gear and all sorts of support. In the open world we will continue to get jacked for the same reason. We don’t start with the resource needed to use abilities. We have to get to the player, land an attack and hope it’s enough rage to click an ability.

[Natalya-lone-wolf]

the designers, and its them who will fix it. Your point?

[Kilobumps-illidan]

Good, warrior scaling was clearly an unintentional outcome not foreseen due to the inexperience of the early wow team.

Imagine seeing the make warriors not op, make everyone op, sod mission statement when sod was announced, and still rolling warrior

Get gutted nerds.

[Preff-crusader-strike]

How about they take away and change our damage % runes and give us utility like heroic leap spell reflect and shockwave. Dont be upset devs are boosting raid warriors when even we dont want those runes.

[Preff-crusader-strike]

@Dacapo-faerlina

both classes you mention are inherently weaker then warrior based on armor prophecies alone.

Here it is. Can anyone even take a guy seriously?

[Aguy-grobbulus]

@Bigcreamy-illidan

I don’t think you realize how much 100 rage is compared to “infinite rage.”

Best post on the thread. Great job.

Dude is confused by the lead dev (also confused) saying stupid crap like “they generate rage and do more damage which generates more rage ad infinitum”.

Simply isn’t true. Warriors are at the peak of the damage they can obtain from their kit/rage mechanics right now when world buffed. Any further damage will come from stats on gear/levels, but won’t come with the same scaling we’re used to seeing, because we are already perma rage capped.

We can’t spend any more rage than we already do because every GCD and weapon swing is taken as is.

[Poofybobbie-wild-growth]

No other class is having their base core mechanics changed 6 months into the game. If this was going to be implemented it should have been way earlier preferably at the launch of the season. This is a major change to the core mechanics of the class. Warrior’s offer 0 utility. If warrior is not in the top dps rankings then there is no incentive to bring them to raid at all. Rouges as well. Pummel and Kick are their only utility. With all the runes allowing other classes to tank the ability to be an effective OT is irrelevant. Warriors scale better with world buffs then any other class. Ok get rid of world buffs don’t change a core mechanic to only 1 class in the final phase of the season. I main a warrior and I am against making such a drastic change to the mechanics of my class. Everyone who is for it wouldn’t be if such a major change was implemented for their class.

[Stormwolf-crusader-strike]

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

No other class is having their base core mechanics changed 6 months into the game. If this was going to be implemented it should have been way earlier preferably at the launch of the season. This is a major change to the core mechanics of the class. Warrior’s offer 0 utility. If warrior is not in the top dps rankings then there is no incentive to bring them to raid at all. Rouges as well. Pummel and Kick are their only utility.

And Battleshout
And Commanding Shout
And Sunder

(I’m guessing the warriors and their broken resource supporters just aren’t used to having to consider what they bring to the raid, since they’ve never had to in a vanilla classic before.)

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Everyone who is for it wouldn’t be if such a major change was implemented for their class.

Warriors escaping the rebalancing patch before TBC doesn’t grandfather them into remaining the broken class in every iteration of wow classic.

[Poofybobbie-wild-growth]

Sunder is irrelevant they are not the only class that can provide major armor debuffs. Shadow priests do it better and also bring far more to the table. The commanding shout and battle shout are useful but are drastically outshined by basically every other class aside from rouge. The reduction in rage generation also fundamentally changes the the timing and flow of the class. Why offer several percent damage increasing runes then complain about warrior damage being to high. I also recall it being said we do not want to bring warrior down we want to bring other classes up. Hunters have essentially unlimited resources even without a paladin or shaman. Mana issues are almost completely gone when those classes are available. Shaman have incredible utility and do very good damage. If you have an enhance shaman and a dps warrior and the warrior does damage on par with the warrior the shaman would always be a better choice. Let us remember that this is a game dominated by following the meta. Commanding shout and battle shout is such a small thing compared to shaman druids and several others. would you like to be able to cast 40 percent as many abilities at lvl 60? Everyone would be upset if the core base mechanics were drastically changed 6 month into the season. This is more than a damage nerf its also a mechanics change. If a similar nerf was done to any other class they would be angry and vocal about it as well. They could remove world buffs from the game completely which would reduce damage of warriors with out fundamentally changing the class. Warriors scale by a much higher percentage with world buffs than other classes. They could also simply reduce the power of runes. If the problem is they do to much damage there are other ways to do it without changing the class at as core level. They did not just figure out warriors scale better than other classes they could have made the change at the beginning so people would have known. This is a different kind of change than any other class has received in SOD. I am bringing up my concerns and thoughts. Blizzard says they are looking for player input that’s what I am doing. I have considered what warriors bring to raid and I may have slightly exaggerated the point but it still stands. They offer far less utility than most every other class. I support not changing core mechanics 6 months into a season. If it had launched that way I would have been able to decide if I wanted to deal with the mechanic change or not.

[Dismyalt-aggramar]

Rage normalization they would make it go off weapons speed and crits would still generate more rage just have it toned down to where criting doesnt give you 80 rage and you spam 10k executes nonstop since you are max rage every auto with cds it won’t change the play style too much just only effect the execute phase of warriors

[Stormwolf-crusader-strike]

Holy wall of text batman.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Sunder is irrelevant they are not the only class that can provide major armor debuffs. Shadow priests do it better and also bring far more to the table.

1. In P4 with current scaling direction, Sunder will overtake Homunc.
2. Homunc is a 2min CD so if the little guys get nuked, there it goes. (Or if there’s more than one target within a 2 minute timeframe.

Homunc is nice if you don’t have a warrior, but it’s a stop gap, not a replacement.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

The commanding shout and battle shout are useful but are drastically outshined by basically every other class aside from rouge.

I doesn’t stack with any other classes’ buffs, it’s additive, and like WF, it’s party only so you’re going to have at least one per melee group.

And warriors will continue to do more damage, it just won’t be 2-3x that of over classes who don’t scale multiplicatively with gear.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

The reduction in rage generation also fundamentally changes the the timing and flow of the class.

Yes, warriors may not be able to press a button every GCD. This is how it’s always been for other classes, and with the resource rebalancing coming to everyone in P4 (not just warriors) I will hit them just as hard.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Why offer several percent damage increasing runes then complain about warrior damage being to high

The concern isn’t warrior damage too high. (If it was the damage being too high, Warlocks and Mages would’ve gotten pooped on too after P2.)

The concern is that warrior damage will continue scaling when everyone else plateaus. (Making them the default DPS such as in Vanilla.)

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

I also recall it being said we do not want to bring warrior down we want to bring other classes up.

Where?
I know they said they would like to buff instead of nerf where possible, but some things just have to be fixed.
(Double stack RB was one of those things…even if I think they went about it in a dumb way instead of a smart way.)

Vanilla Warrior Rage gen is another of those things. We all see it coming because it’s what it’s been for 20 years of vanilla.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Hunters have essentially unlimited resources even without a paladin or shaman. Mana issues are almost completely gone when those classes are available.

Those are also getting rebalanced in P4, this isn’t just warriors biting the resource bazooka- it’s just the first time they will have done so in a classic vanilla iteration.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Shaman have incredible utility and do very good damage. If you have an enhance shaman and a dps warrior and the warrior does damage on par with the warrior the shaman would always be a better choice.

I will admit, I kinda smiled at a warrior having to justify a raid slot against a shaman. Enhancement shamans just didn’t get to raid in that environment.

But there’s a couple things you’re forgetting.

1. The buffs
2. That warrior abilities are designed without windfury, so when they have it, they go through the roof. (That’s why Warriors are above Shaman even now in mid P3 before they’re geared all the way up for damage to bosses in every percentile above 75th.)
3. They also can off-tank. (Considerably better than Shaman now with the RB nuking.)

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Let us remember that this is a game dominated by following the meta. Commanding shout and battle shout is such a small thing compared to shaman druids and several others. would you like to be able to cast 40 percent as many abilities at lvl 60?

You’re asking the wrong class that kinda…

All mystuff outside of MSW procs are on CDs, some of them are shared CDs.

(Also lets wait until the rubber meets the road before start throwing numbers out of just how much less Warriors will be able to do.)

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

Everyone would be upset if the core base mechanics were drastically changed 6 month into the season. This is more than a damage nerf its also a mechanics change. If a similar nerf was done to any other class they would be angry and vocal about it as well.

That’s about to happen, lol. It’s not just Warrior resource getting normalized.

(The only difference is, those other classes didn’t have the broken resource mechanics to begin with…so they were given viability through broken resource, and will be brought back to the middle, warriors are the only ones that escaped the balance pass in the first place to be brought back to the middle…so they’re getting it here…)

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

They could remove world buffs from the game completely which would reduce damage of warriors with out fundamentally changing the class. Warriors scale by a much higher percentage with world buffs than other classes.

That’s because Warriors scale multiplicatively due to their resource mechanic.

World buffs are just one more curtain in the kitchen fire. I’d rather put out the kitchen fire than remove a curtain from it.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

They could also simply reduce the power of runes. If the problem is they do to much damage there are other ways to do it without changing the class at as core level.

I think with Rage normalized, that actually opens up warriors to getting some actual COOL runes instead of just the passive workings within their resource.

They couldn’t give warriors any super damage runes like Lava Burst, Mutilate, or VP, because it would fill their rage bar up. Normalization solves that problem and opens the door for cool things, while also normalizing the class like what should’ve happened in Vanilla instead of waiting until TBC prepatch…

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

They did not just figure out warriors scale better than other classes they could have made the change at the beginning so people would have known.

Nope, but it probably wasn’t a priority in Phase 1, 2, or 3 since the resource scaling becomes drastic at level 60.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

This is a different kind of change than any other class has received in SOD.

Most other classes had to be brought UP to being competitive.
Warriors are the only ones that started out with being dominant because of the resource scaling…

And like I said (from Blizz) ALL classes are getting nerfs to resource Generation in P4.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

I have considered what warriors bring to raid and I may have slightly exaggerated the point but it still stands.

I’m glad you recognize this.

@Poofybobbie-wild-growth

They offer far less utility than most every other class. I support not changing core mechanics 6 months into a season. If it had launched that way I would have been able to decide if I wanted to deal with the mechanic change or not.

I’m sure they would’ve if they could have, but they have a pretty small team (for an annoying reason) and have to prioritize fixes.

Stormstrike wasn’t fixed until Phase 2, because it wasn’t a problem in Phase 1.
Rage Gen didn’t get fixed in phase 1, 2, or 3, because it’s not really a problem until level cap.

I still want my weapon buffs to last longer than 5 minutes…and that’s been a problem since the first hour of SoD.

[Krickles-eranikus]

Aggrend doesn’t give AF