In both cases you would lose the roll to an algorithm. You just see the roll take place in one vs the other. It is purely the perception of losing to someone that causes the feelings.
People dont like to lose. And seeing that you lose to someone feels worse than not seeing it. There are issues with group loot. But people needing on everything that they are eligible to roll on, isnt one of them.
OK, explain to me what the difference is then for open roll vs group loot.
My guild specifically made a spreadsheet with Google Docs for tier pieces, at least. It helps figure out who still needs what, from where, and it helps decipher who would get the most value at that time.
Other than tier, we have a system in place for loot to help the betterment of the guild. If you’re in a pug raid, I have no words to offer because that’s the Wild West. Good guilds can triumph over these systems.
Rolling against 16 people per drop vs you have a chance to get the item or not. You do the math. Feels terrible and nothing anyone can say or do would change the community’s mind about it. The boomer devs think that cause it’s successful in classic that it would be good to bring back now. They fail to realize that loot in retail is sooooooo stingy it’s a dated system that feels like absolute garbage.
No I think you fail to understand what most people are mad at. What Most people are mad at is either getting nothing at all or Having it stolen by people who dont need it. Right before DF came out when personal Loot went away there was many an example of people rolling on things and taking them when they did not need them.
AT least with personal loot it really was just RNG. Also People hate getting things with the current loot rules that mean nothing to you. Like doing a rare and getting Items that are not even for your class. At least with Personal loot you either got nothing because the mob dropped nothing for you class, or you got an item for that class.
With Personal loot it really was for you. Now it is what it is and it can be stolen too. GL is objectively worse.
I genuinely don’t understand how people don’t get the difference between personal loot and group loot.
A: Group loot is capable of dropping items that no one in the raid can use or equip - IE: ras dropping five hunter bows when there is no hunter in the raid.
B: with group loot, one personal is capable of winning the roll on every item that drops from the boss, thus creating unequal loot distribution. With personal loot, each person has a chance at one piece of loot per boss.
For example, say that the raid kills 5 bosses and 15 pieces of loot drop. One person is capable of winning the roll on all 15 of those items. This is why people dislike group loot.
And for those that say this doesn’t happen, it does. I’ve witnessed people win four or more items from one boss multiple times.
Group loot is a terrible loot system for pugs because it can drop loot no one can use as well as one person being able to win everything.
I do know that the first boss drops a crossbow a lot to a group with no hunters and this week the warlock got 2 tier tokens from the same boss because we had 1 lock no DK and no DH. In personal loot this wouldn’t happen.
The last LFR I did , NO ONE rolled on the 2 strength 1 handers and the 2 hander.
Took a look and me and the Warrior tank were the only strength users in the raid. I almost felt like needing and taking all 3 just to say i did.
Are you sure? Wanna go through some of those threads again?
Open Roll = Everyone can roll for every item with no restrictions. A greed roll is an open roll.
Group Loot= You can roll for an item if your class/loot spec can use it, against other people’s who class and loot spec can use it. If you do not want or need the item, you can press greed and open roll for it. There are no ilvl restrictions for needing vs greeding. Even if the item is higher ilvl than the one you have equipped you can greed roll it or pass. In group loot what drops is based off the boss’s loot table. Not based on the group make-up who killed the boss. This is a glaring flaw in group loot.
Personal Loot= After the boss is killed, everyone rolls a dice. Depending on the raid size the top rolls get a piece of loot based on the boss’s loot table for the players class/loot spec. These rolls are hidden from the players and done on the back end. If the item is higher ilvl than the one you have equipped in that slot, the item is then soulbound. If the item is lower ilvl or a duplicate, the player can choose to trade that item to other players. This system takes group composition into account, thus greatly benefits from class stacking to influence what drops. A large flaw in this system.
There is no ability to ninja loot anything. Ninja looting dates back to the days of vanilla. When items could be looted off raid bosses by anyone regardless if the class/spec if the loot was set to free for all, or everyone passed. Ninja looting also happened with master looter, where the RL would just decide to take the loot for themselves.
Viewing it as stolen is completely an opinion and a feeling. They simply won the roll. If they got the item in personal loot and kept it for tmog or shard, they didnt steal it from other players. They just won it. In group loot they also just win it. But you can see them winning it over you. Which is why you feel bad.
Group loot has flaws. But people who dont necessarily need the loot for an ilvl upgrade or stat upgrade winning the roll on an item, is not one of them. I will concede that it creates a negative feeling, which does affect players.
If you roll need on something that you dont need for Ilvl or stat upgrade that is called stealing from people who do actually need it. So is loot funneling which happens a lot now too.
Dropping loot that no one can equip sounds like a problem for the raid leader. When i make normal pugs on my alts and make sure to grab a hunter an evoker and atleast 1 class of every tier. Thats kind of the point behind it, theres so many classes/specs they want to give you reasons to not just stack whats op.
The only people who do so are WF’ers, and yes that did very much happen. But alienated a large group of people who do small raids for 4 total guilds that raid for 4 weeks and then sell m+ runs for the rest of the patch, is pretty dumb in my opinion. Besides, those WF’ers just spammed M+ to gear, especially since tier was relatively weak by comparison. They will always find a way to farm gear, and PL->GL didn’t slow progress down at all.
Also, it doesn’t really increase raid diversity. Raid leads aren’t inviting new classes so gear is wasted, especially in pugs. They just care if they get loot, and inviting a diverse cast of classes doesn’t help them any. In fact, the only thing it actually does it lower the desire to invite any class that can share your armor class or loot tokens, so that you can win the rolls should one arise.
GL sucks.
Yeah, someone getting a loot item through personal loot and not giving it to you even though they don’t need it is basically the exact same situation as you losing the roll on an item to someone who doesn’t need it. Except now the person has to manually choose to roll on the item even though they don’t need it, and there are safeguards in place (maybe not enough safeguards) to prevent people from rolling on items they don’t need.
So yeah, personal loot is no better than group loot in that regard, but now you can SEE when someone screws you over.
That being said, I do think there are a few fringe situations that make getting items more annoying, especially in LFR. For one, you can have items drop for classes that you don’t have in the group. This is okay if you are in an organized raid group, as it encourages you to have a healthy comp and not just stack 10 warriors, which personal loot encourages. However, in LFR, you have absolutely no way to control for this. So if you get an unlucky group comp in LFR, you could just be SOL because you ended up in a group with 10 plate wearers as a plate wearer, and have no chance at getting loot.
when it gets down to it, Personal Loot was better because even if you didn’t get gear, you got resources and gold. If you got an item you didn’t need you could offer it up and let players roll on the item
one of my Vault runs the weekend resulted in a pug (in a pug group) winning 2 items they didn’t need off council and then bailing. that kind of thing makes the entire group upset and kills the good vibes gained from downing a boss
This is the entitlement I see every time somebody whines about group loot. They literally think all drops should be theirs and nobody else should get anything.
that is not an ideal situation…
leader says “hey all, we’re ready to go with enough people but I have to sit in LFG for another hour looking for one hunter that is qualified to join the raid just to make sure a piece of loot doesn’t go to waste.”
Sounds like fun
no, the difference between group loot and personal loot is that ONE PERSON can literally win every piece from one boss.
Yes. Because a raid leader giving up control by choosing to make the group a Personal Loot group is already more trustworthy before the raid even begins.
And that just burns you up doesn’t it? How dare they get loot you deserve!
I think what makes people mad is that people who don’t need the gear will need roll on it. It’s not like personal loot made anyone luckier though.