PW: Blink twice if Vixie made you make this

03/02/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Nixxia
Yes. Also, any voiced stuff you're hearing is the original voice actors. The replacement didn't happen until Heavensward, which was the first expansion and covers everything following the finale of the level 50 story quests.
Ah, I see. Unfortunately, I'll probably never end up getting FF14 and experiencing that. Even though, I did really enjoy it. Just hard to get into another pay-to-play MMO. :P
Especially considering I don't even pay for WoW. I've been using gold to pay for my sub and expansions.
...

Bah.


Especially given how you level. It took like 5 years for your warrior


Hey! At least I leveled her. She used to be my banker, yanno.

03/02/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Marathal
I'm considering becoming a Blood Elf once again. Opinions?


Do it. Or a Void Elf or whatever they're called. They look cool.
03/02/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Marathal
I'm considering becoming a Blood Elf once again. Opinions?

You're considering switching away from pandaren?

Slowwww dowwwwn.

03/02/2018 05:05 PMPosted by AmĂ­na
Man just talking about it reminds me about what a great story FFXIV has, what great character development, constant plot twists you actually don't (usually) see coming. Makes me wonder if Blizz could write equally compelling stories in WoW if they weren't so constrained by the general populace and "faction bias."

I've wondered that myself. I think Blizzard is capable of much better storytelling than we see in WoW --- Diablo and Warcraft 3 are both good, though admittedly not really comparable to FFXIV.

WoW has never really focused on story, though. Part of it may be that the game was influenced at the beginning by raid-focused gamers like Alex Afrasiabi, but it may also be that in the classic age of MMORPGs, story was actually seen as detrimental to the genre: the player couldn't be involved in any kind of fixed dramatic narrative, because they were supposed to be anonymous peons with no importance to the story.

Honestly, I think this outlook never really worked, because games lack the complexity of reality. The game can support one story (the hero who saves the world), but it can't support millions of stories (the Stormwind baker who's married with three kids, the random orc grunt who has a secret interest in orchestra music). The only way a game can really handle stories like that is by letting the players handle them, i.e., by facilitating RP. But RP can still take place regardless of the game's "official" story, so there's really no reason not to have the story in there.

In WoW's defense, though, I have to say the game world itself still feels much more real to me than the FFXIV one despite the lackluster graphics. Maybe it's just that WoW has been around for longer, so there's a sense of history: you can go to the gates of Ahn'Qiraj and see where people rang the gong years ago. WoW's story is more dependent on player-created collective memory, in contrast to FFXIV's developer-led storytelling. It makes the WoW story much less dramatic and powerful, but in some ways it also makes it feel more realistic.

03/02/2018 09:07 PMPosted by AmĂ­na
Um. Has anyone tried to do the quest "Subdue the Subduer," the quest you get in the netherwing questline from Outlands since 7.3.5?

I would submit a ticket. I've had the same problem in the past, of needing to do a quest that was broken by an update, and they were willing to just give me credit for the quest so I could move on.
You know. That is something I've seen in WoW and not in other games. I've played Blade & Soul and Wildstar really hard. They never had those kind of events. They had great single-player stories, I loved Blade & Soul's story. People have said the same thing about the Star Wars MMO having a good single-player story. But, yah. Nothing like the 1-time AQ event. Or the Isle of Qual'Danas. Entire servers working together to progress something.
Maybe I just missed those kind of events in other games and they were there. I don't know!
SWTOR's story isn't even all that good anymore. When they moved away from the Sith Empire versus the Republic and away from class stories, it really became bland and generic. It's still not terrible, but it's very hard to have moments where you really feel like your class. In contrast, the original questing content was full of them and really opened my eyes to what MMORPG storytelling could be like.
03/03/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Knocrogue
You know. That is something I've seen in WoW and not in other games. I've played Blade & Soul and Wildstar really hard. They never had those kind of events. They had great single-player stories, I loved Blade & Soul's story. People have said the same thing about the Star Wars MMO having a good single-player story. But, yah. Nothing like the 1-time AQ event. Or the Isle of Qual'Danas. Entire servers working together to progress something.
Maybe I just missed those kind of events in other games and they were there. I don't know!

I wasn't even necessarily talking about progression events like that. I just mean, you can go to places and be like, oooh! remember when we did such-and-such? Like, I can go to the Valley of the Four Winds, and it reminds me of when everyone was doing Tillers dailies for more plots to grow vegetables and stuff. There's really nothing like that in FFXIV.
03/03/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Icpitl
There's really nothing like that in FFXIV.


I was there when the Raubahn Wall fell.
03/03/2018 08:47 AMPosted by Nixxia
SWTOR's story isn't even all that good anymore. When they moved away from the Sith Empire versus the Republic and away from class stories, it really became bland and generic. It's still not terrible, but it's very hard to have moments where you really feel like your class. In contrast, the original questing content was full of them and really opened my eyes to what MMORPG storytelling could be like.
Oh. That's not good. This was a really long time ago that a friend told me about it. So, I suppose a lot could have changed since! But, that old content is probably still around, right? If someone new started playing.
03/03/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Icpitl
I wasn't even necessarily talking about progression events like that. I just mean, you can go to places and be like, oooh! remember when we did such-and-such? Like, I can go to the Valley of the Four Winds, and it reminds me of when everyone was doing Tillers dailies for more plots to grow vegetables and stuff. There's really nothing like that in FFXIV.
Oh, I see. So, you never really even stick in zones beyond leveling? Is there not even like daily quests at max level to grind out a faction reputation or something?
03/03/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Knocrogue
Oh, I see. So, you never really even stick in zones beyond leveling? Is there not even like daily quests at max level to grind out a faction reputation or something?

More the opposite. FFXIV doesn't have "leveling zones" exactly. It's not like Guild Wars 2, where everything is synced and you literally can't outlevel the content, but in general the whole game world stays relevant, or at least more relevant than in WoW. So there's not a lot of history there, because it's all still current.

Of course, FFXIV does arguably have a lack of things to do at max level. There are a few factions with dailies, but mostly you're leveling alt classes and stuff.
But, that old content is probably still around, right? If someone new started playing.


Yes. The 1-50 stuff is still there.

Like I just want to be clear, the new stuff isn't bad. It's just I never really feel downright Sithy anymore. There's never any moment where I really feel like the quintessential dark side Force user because the options are generic and meant for both Force and non-Force users, as well as both Sith and Jedi. However, the story is completely fine besides that. There are still light and dark options and the story actually changes somewhat based on your decisions.
03/03/2018 12:07 PMPosted by Icpitl
More the opposite. FFXIV doesn't have "leveling zones" exactly. It's not like Guild Wars 2, where everything is synced and you literally can't outlevel the content, but in general the whole game world stays relevant, or at least more relevant than in WoW. So there's not a lot of history there, because it's all still current.
Ah. I guess that doesn't kick in till later? The zones seemed pretty normal while I was on the trial. :x
03/03/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Nixxia
Yes. The 1-50 stuff is still there.

Like I just want to be clear, the new stuff isn't bad. It's just I never really feel downright Sithy anymore. There's never any moment where I really feel like the quintessential dark side Force user because the options are generic and meant for both Force and non-Force users, as well as both Sith and Jedi. However, the story is completely fine besides that. There are still light and dark options and the story actually changes somewhat based on your decisions.
That's good. I was kind of thinking they might have done something like Cataclysm. haha. And I see what you mean about the new quests. That's no fun. I'm not even sure what I'd go if I played that game. Probably Jedi. :P
Ah. I guess that doesn't kick in till later? The zones seemed pretty normal while I was on the trial.

Yeah, when you're leveling, the zones are just normal leveling zones. And once you're done leveling, you can go back there and tear through all those hapless low-level enemies.

It's more that FFXIV has a ton of stuff like the Legion artifact quests, where the game sends you back to a low-level zone for story purposes and spawns high-level stuff to fight you.

There's also a ton of syncing in instanced content. So if you sign up for a random dungeon, you could end up fighting Helya, or you could get knocked back to level 16 and pitted against Hogger. Or, you know, whatever the equivalent is.

03/03/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Knocrogue
I'm not even sure what I'd go if I played that game. Probably Jedi. :P

Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The force shall free me.
03/03/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Icpitl
Or, you know, whatever the equivalent is.


Good ol' Sastasha.
Alright, so I'm now level 24. I also tanked a dungeon.

> Leveling is noticeably slower.
> Mobs die noticeably slower.
> I still have no useful or fun abilities.
> Nothing is actually more challenging or dangerous.

It's honestly like getting Sastasha in your leveling queue when you're level 68 if the bonus didn't scale for lower level dungeons.
03/03/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Icpitl
There's also a ton of syncing in instanced content. So if you sign up for a random dungeon, you could end up fighting Helya, or you could get knocked back to level 16 and pitted against Hogger. Or, you know, whatever the equivalent is.
I definitely did experience a lot of this! Would do the random dungeon daily. But, after that, just direct Q since it appeared you don't get bonus EXP more than once unless there's a role bonus.
And I see! I always wondered why the odd high level would be running around the areas.
03/03/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Nixxea
Alright, so I'm now level 24. I also tanked a dungeon.

> Leveling is noticeably slower.
> Mobs die noticeably slower.
> I still have no useful or fun abilities.
> Nothing is actually more challenging or dangerous.

It's honestly like getting Sastasha in your leveling queue when you're level 68 if the bonus didn't scale for lower level dungeons.
I think I may have missed out on some fast leveling. The last time I legit leveled a toon from fresh to max was in MOP. I say legit since there was the Legion pre-patch where you could level a toon from 1-100 in a couple hours. So, I did get everything to 100 during that. haha

But, back in MOP, the fastest max level I got was 2 days 18 hours /played. The fastest Allied Race I hit max on was my Lightforged Paladin was 2 days 16 hours /played. My Void Elf and Nightborne took over 3 days /played. So, the overall leveling speed felt mostly the same to me. But, better since the zone scaling is absolutely amazing.

A friend of mine said he had hit 110 on his Shaman in like 1 day some odd hours /played without RAF. So, it does appear that at least in early Legion, leveling was very accelerated.
03/03/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Nixxea

> Leveling is noticeably slower.
> Mobs die noticeably slower.
> I still have no useful or fun abilities.
> Nothing is actually more challenging or dangerous.

I thought it was just me. :/

03/03/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Knocrogue
But, better since the zone scaling is absolutely amazing.

I like the idea of zone scaling, but I can't help being really frustrated by the narrowness of some of the bands. They let you choose between Outland and Northrend and between Cataclysm and Pandaria, but I want to skip the first two and do both the second two.
I think the slower leveling makes alts more valuable and meaningful like they were in the past, but maybe not when most people leveled their alts before this patch

And the dungeons do get better, especially when classes actually get their aoe/cleave. What sucks is that they didn’t change a lot of the stat reducing debuffs, so losing x amount of attack power or strength ends up cutting huge percentages of your damage.
03/04/2018 12:27 AMPosted by Icpitl
I like the idea of zone scaling, but I can't help being really frustrated by the narrowness of some of the bands. They let you choose between Outland and Northrend and between Cataclysm and Pandaria, but I want to skip the first two and do both the second two.
Part of me is surprised they let us choose to begin with. I was kind of thinking at first the zones would be limited to their expansion cap. So, Outland zones would be 60-70, Northrend 70-80, etc. At least we got some kind of improvement there. haha
03/04/2018 12:38 AMPosted by Nysem
And the dungeons do get better, especially when classes actually get their aoe/cleave. What sucks is that they didn’t change a lot of the stat reducing debuffs, so losing x amount of attack power or strength ends up cutting huge percentages of your damage.
Oh my gosh, Dire Maul is a nightmare for that. The one with the Reaver ogres. They have a debuff that strips all your armor(the tooltip says a portion, so that can't be intended), then an MS effect reducing healing by 50%. And of course, no one respects CC. I hated tanking that dungeon. x.x
03/04/2018 12:38 AMPosted by Nysem
I think the slower leveling makes alts more valuable and meaningful like they were in the past, but maybe not when most people leveled their alts before this patch


I think that ship has long since sailed. Alts haven't really felt meaningful to me since BC.

  • Heirlooms and BG XP combined with BG event weekends made leveling through Wrath absurdly quick and vanilla + BC was no longer the slog it used to be following the nerfs to XP requirements for 61-70.
  • Professions were much easier to level and relevant recipes were much more standardized in terms of acquisition. In conjunction with simply having more characters, it was much easier to have all of the professions yourself and every recipe you'd ever care about.
  • Dungeon finder made it so your friend having a tank alt didn't actually help much. It sped up your queue, sure, but the game was going to make sure you got a tank one way or another.
  • Gearing used to take real work, but Wrath blew pug raiding wide open and threw gear at everyone.
  • Basically, alts stopped becoming a very valuable thing to have that you had to invest a lot in and became a small diversion to do whenever you were bored between raid lockouts on your main.

    Additionally, I am at 16 capped characters. The leveling changes were not substantial and they're basically just a minor inconvenience that's more annoying less because of the increased time and more because it's another example of Blizzard just trying to micromanage how players approach the game rather than letting them figure out how to have fun themselves. If they wanted to introduce scaling and make leveling take longer, fine, but they should have provided additional options to compensate for players who have thoroughly exhausted the content. For a variety of reasons I won't bother repeating here, leveling has basically been reduced to an introductory prologue before you can access World of Warcraft.

    Despite the nerf, I may very well end this expansion with 25+ characters (10 more than my previous record), despite having been unsubbed or not playing for more of it than any previous expansion. This is primarily because alts snowball very hard, so the more alts you have, the easier it is to have even more alts later, and because of Legion Assaults, which are the most ridiculous leveling tool ever put in this game. It's actually less time /played to do those than it was to do the XP pot and bonus objective trick in WoD.

    03/03/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Knocrogue
    I think I may have missed out on some fast leveling. The last time I legit leveled a toon from fresh to max was in MOP. I say legit since there was the Legion pre-patch where you could level a toon from 1-100 in a couple hours. So, I did get everything to 100 during that. haha

    But, back in MOP, the fastest max level I got was 2 days 18 hours /played. The fastest Allied Race I hit max on was my Lightforged Paladin was 2 days 16 hours /played. My Void Elf and Nightborne took over 3 days /played. So, the overall leveling speed felt mostly the same to me. But, better since the zone scaling is absolutely amazing.

    A friend of mine said he had hit 110 on his Shaman in like 1 day some odd hours /played without RAF. So, it does appear that at least in early Legion, leveling was very accelerated.


    That's not a terrible time if all you did was quest casually and I've seen similar things reported elsewhere, which suggests to me that the thrust of the nerf was aimed at dungeons, which were significantly faster following the addition of bonus objectives. At the same time, it's still slower than what I'd consider to be my casual questing speed, and as I've done many of these zones literally dozens of times, I'm not really interested in spending more time in them than I have to, unless I just happen to be really interested in the quest content per se at the moment. That does happen, and I did things like complete Darkshore with my heirlooms on despite it being gray just to finish the zone and see the story, but in general, I'm just trying to get to end game.

    I'm not really a fan of level scaling either. It undermines the entire point of leveling to begin with, to say nothing of the value of doing so. What's the point of leveling to 60 in the first place if all of the mobs leveled right along with me? The only real benefit to me is that it means I'll be able to do 60-80 in Outland, since Wrath has aged worse than any other expansion in terms of quest content. As the bridge between old and new, it has Cataclysm's boring and mindless quest organization and layout paired with vanilla and BC's philosophy that questing should be slow and a real grind.
    Traveling was always a pain and boring. Being able to stay in a zone and level was what made it amazing. Going to X zone and only being there for a few minutes because you outleveled it in a few quests mostly just slowed you down.
    I don't understand why it undermines anything. If you're level 60, you should be going to Outland/Northrend to level. Why does it matter that mobs all Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor are 60? Especially if your goal is to just hit endgame. They all do cap. Outland/Northrend at 80, Cata/MOP at 90, WOD at 100. Seems like that whole issue is irrelevant as you will still be able to go back and one-shot everything.

    I also don't see why you'd want so many alts at max to actually play. I generally only play 5 of my 110s. The rest I just got to max then logged off and never touched them again. The only reason I leveled up a bunch of toons was for the fun of leveling. Do you actually log on all your toons every day? I just feel like that would be madness.