[PvE][Retail] Lack of class tuning

So we got posts with PvP tuning and dungeon tuning, but there’s a VERY suspicious lack of a PvE tuning post.

What’s up with that? There’s some absurd outliers in both directions, and at least the ones towards the bottom (Destro, Aff, Ele, Shadow, WW etc) should surely be getting some attention. I get that you don’t like nerfing specs early in the season, but especially Assassination needs to be looked at for raid and Havoc for M+.

The gap even on singletarget fights between the best and worst specs is to the tune of 30+%, which is some of the worst we’ve ever seen, certainly in recent memory. Do better.


I can’t help but think it’s mostly because of RWF.

Also, it’s Thanksgiving week, but I don’t feel that should be a reason.

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Besides ppl doing split runs - most ppl don’t even have 4 set and the first week was full of bugs that made some specs show up on logs better than they are atm. (esp. since WCL didn’t reset the logs afterward) - Waiting for 1-3 weeks before doing major spec tuning is good in my PoV. Some Specs also (Ele) are heavy reliant on their new tier set to unlock their new potential.

If it turns out being still a dire state for those specs tuning for the outliers and bottom specs is good. Way better than when they asap. turned spec so down they turned out to be never recovering from it inside the season (S1 Hunter compensation Tuning to Rasz Bow which turned out to be a big nerf).


A class… shouldn’t have to rely on having a full tier set to have agency. The class shouldn’t be designed and tuned around having that tier set.

Having the Tier set should improve the class and make it better. But should NOT be tuned/designed around said tier set.


But that is how the S3 Tiers work for the most part (with few exceptions) - afaik they hard force you into talents to even work. Making them “Seasonal” Builds (For Ele f.e. Primordial Wave). The S3 take on Tier Sets kinda feels like a lot inspired by D3. In some ways it’s good to see them approaching new build options for classes and change up how a spec functions but it always come with the weird process of gearing and acquiring the new tier.

Ele Shaman f.e. swapped their stat priority totally with the new tier, making them getting completelydifferent stats than before.

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That may be so. It shouldn’t be that way however.

Forcing choices on players is just bringing about the old ways of “if you’re not this spec with this exact build don’t bother.” It’s bad game design. Players should not be hard forced into talents/builds by game design. **Raid Communities still coming up with the best builds/specs and requiring them is on the community.

It seems like, for some reason, the teams working on Diablo and World of Warcraft are intermixing and some Diablo fashioned stuff that works great in Diablo is trying to find its way into WoW and it’s just not going to work.


There’s no reason to wait when we have both logs and sims saying the same things. The best performing players on every spec also have very good gear (including 4sets), so it’s not like the data is being unfair in that regard.

There’s especially no reason to wait when they should just tune now and then continue doing so as and when it becomes necessary. It’s not like it’s something that can only be done once.


It has to be tuned around it, there’s no other way. You can’t just balance specs without tier in mind, and then they get tier and suddenly nothing is balanced anymore because the power level of different tiersets varies drastically.

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Those usually don’t even bother touching those classes - with few one trick exceptions in the first raid week. - Tuning should not happen on week 1 data. I know the sims from the theorycrafting standpoint and I also know how the logs look atm. but I still believe it is way to early to swing the buff/nerf hammer either way. Some Classes always have been good in prog since they can handle with new environments - most of the data is on first kills - f.e. I don’t expect a shadow or windwalker to do an insane performance on their first kill of a boss (totally unrelated to their current tuning or data) but I expect a BM Hunter f.e. to do great on it (again unrelated to tuning) since they can handle mechanics more easily.

On Theorycrafting:

It’s still theorycrafting and theory doesn’t represent the actual performance on different encounters and situations, they usually represent not actual fights over the long run and are only data based on parameters (they don’t include mechanics and ppl still adapting to the fights). Some Classes are just way better in dealing with a new environment from the scratch and look better on it.

I’m generally for more tuning, but it’s also not great to prepare classes and then getting 180’d on tuning week 2 after you tunnel’d loot into them (esp. with the fewer tier drops). That said, I still see those on bottom (around 25k - 40k away from Top ST Damage with Max Gear) in need of small aura buffs - those are okay and can be reverted easily if they overshot. I’m also more for having different specs being the top performer each tier it doesn’t have to be the usual suspects.

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This afternoon, we posted about class tuning that we’re doing tomorrow. These changes were informed by class performance over the first two weeks of the season.

When a new season begins, we collect a huge amount of data about class performance, item acquisition rates, PvP statistics, etc. During this time we will fix any critical, disruptive, or otherwise immediate problems that come up as quickly as we can. We also need to be careful about any changes we plan and ensure we have adequate data to make informed decisions, and then additionally need time for testing the changes we’re making to avoid further issues. Alongside the changes in the above link, we’re planning to send an additional batch of tuning changes that will be released during restarts on the week of December 5th, which will probably include some buffs and some nerfs.

We’ll continue to make adjustments regularly, based on data and feedback, but probably not as often later in the season compared to these early few weeks.


I’ll be honest, this rings incredibly hollow when there’s a spec called Assassination absolutely dominating everything in raid by the widest margin we’ve seen in an incredibly long time (and Sub still seeing play over that absolute monster of a spec on some fights). Or Havoc in M+. Or to a lesser extent Outlaw(M+)/BM(both). Those are critical and disruptive problems. Players are not stupid, they know they really really want to invite Havoc/Aug/Outlaw/BM to their keys because it’ll make their lives infinitely easier with how broken those specs are.

If Augmentation hooks being broken is causing you so many problems, even internally, that it’s preventing you from providing the tuning changes needed to make the game at least somewhat balanced, the spec needs a rework until it no longer causes this. There’s 38 other specs in the game, 1 spec should not be allowed to jail all the others. Same goes for Power Infusion, Autumn and whatever else is poisoning the data (and making the game frustrating to play)

Waiting until after RWF is over before doing anything is also doing a disservice to the vast majority of players who are not involved in this race. In the past, when heroic week still existed, we at least got some changes on the transition from that to mythic week. Bring back heroic week if not disrupting RWF (who gear up characters from 0 to better than most HoF guild characters in a few days anyway) is such a priority.