I doubt their forum is really meant to support such large threads.
The system is probably having trouble tracking the number of posts in real time. 
Goes to show how much people don’t like the systems in Shadowlands.
Right, I’m sure it’s not game-breaking, just extremely contrived. Which makes it more of a pain for the casual player.
Sounds like you agree that power should be split from covenant choice. Why even put it in there in the first place if cosmetics are already such a big motivator? Sounds like a lot of extra headache for vary little payoff if any.
Again no real argument here (besides the power attachment that is), much easier to do if you just split the power from the covenant. Argument avoided, kinda.
The argument that player power makes the choice more meaningful is pretty subjective as I’ve heard a plethora of players state they would much rather choose their aesthetic for their own story as opposed to being forced behind arbitrary power.
So I assume you are for the ripcord pulling then?
Edit: cleared up my thought in the second statement
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It’s very simple. If it can be balanced, then locking is fine. If it cannot be balanced, then it should not be locked. You cannot NOT balance it and NOT give player the freedom to pick. This is not even about getting into groups. If I can’t pick what’s good for the content I am doing, I won’t do it. I’ll stick to raid logging, and the rest of the game will be dead to me because I refuse to gimp myself. I know there are many that share the same concern.
Second question is of course can they even be balanced? I say no. Why, you might ask? Too many factors. The covenant abilities span across all spec of a class, and for some classes multiple roles. Some interact with existing class skills, some don’t. Some provide utilities, some don’t. When it’s not all about numbers, how do you balance?
Forget about balance on covenant abilities, there will not be one, just unlock it.
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Which is obviously inherent in the concept. Like when these were announced 90% of the wow community knew that it could never be balanced, or even really get close.
IDK what world Ion lives in where he makes the same arrogant mistakes over and over and over.
I’m of the understanding that some players think if they lock themselves into a poor choice for the content they are attempting, others will be forced to take them because they are unable to freely change it.
Which is just weird circular logic to me, they’ll just find someone else.
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The most important part of the concept, imho, is the idea that your individual character makes a pact with one of the covenants, and this defines that character’s experience throughout the expansion.
Including:
-Unique story elements (the covenant campaign)
-Unique cosmetics, including hopefully some that are more challenging to obtain later in the expansion.
-New abilities and passives.
The last part is the hardest to implement, of course, that is news to no one. But swapping around a lot shouldn’t be a big part of the feature, only as a back-up if a particular player feels they really made a mistake.
I think they should stick with the design as it is. For one thing, the abilities are very closely tied to the style of each covenant.
But I’m not hellbent on a particular thing either. If they decide that the active abilities should work more like talents or essences, that could also be ok. Maybe not great, as the system clearly wasn’t designed with that in mind. But not terrible.
So how does removing the power from the covenant system prevent players from having a unique story-driven experience with the covenant they have chosen?
Instead of feeling forced into one that is BiS for their class for the content they want to participate in?
Tuning? Which you have readily admitted has always been a problem?
I’m not for people to willy nilly swapping covenants, its just an easy answer to a problem blizzard has placed on themselves.
My problem is the rational that player power “needs” to be kept with the covenants… for… story? When we have seen time and time again through the beta testers your allegiance basically boils down to your “garrison”.
I appreciate you breaking down the obvious for me, but I still haven’t heard a reasonable reason why power shouldn’t be split from covenants.
Edit:
And because Blizzard wants it that way isn’t a really compelling answer
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Honestly team it barely matters now
They’ve pretty much nuked everything so hard and made every ability almost the exact same thing aside from a few
Currently all the abilities do almost the exact same thing, everything has been nerfed into the ground
Turns out they pull the ripcord by burning most of it to the ground
I’m having Teldrassil flashbacks.
Customizing and progressing a character, including active abilities, talents, etc., linked to story choices and visual customization… those are core elements of any RPG.
The only reason we’re even having this conversation is that WoW’s design over the years has been defined, probably excessively, by a certain type of competitive, numbers-driven gameplay that places little value on RPG mechanics, and more value on “balance” and tuning.
That point of view has some merit, of course, but it also gets out of hand and has absolutely diluted the game’s design by a lot over the years. Blizzard bears some responsibility for this.
But having multiple character progression paths in a RPG needs no special explanation. It is the default.
Given the way the whole feature is designed, it doesn’t really surprise me that they would rather have weaker abilities than ability swapping.
Turns out they pull the ripcord by burning most of it to the ground
Yes, it looks that’s the way it went. Quite sad.
Seriously, can’t they just accept that what we really need is a new talent tree level for each class that changes every single expansion. Tanks and healing classes can have four or five abilities so there’s actually some choice here.
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The better analogy would be if Blizzard used restrictions in such a way that your artifact weapons could not be changed, in the same way covenants are.
Sure, you COULD use the Silver Hand while playing Retribution, but that would certainly not be as fun as using the Ashbringer.
Right, which we have represented by classes and class specializations. Adding arbitrary power muddies the issue at this point considering you could just give us all 4 abilities and re-color them to each covenant with applicable skill name.
Progressing a character’s power doesn’t mean gating 4 different abilities between arbitrary aesthetic choices.
That’s because single-player RPG elements don’t hold up in an MMO world.
You cannot emphasize the choices of a singular player to effect the entire game’s progression when you have millions of other players, common now. That’s absurd, and I’m sure you know that.
I’m honestly not sure why you’re explaining the obvious just for me to state why you’re obviously being irrational.
Right except you don’t have multiple progression paths, not in an MMO when every player is “special”.
You have several parallel progression paths that have a different flavor but all end up at the same destination. You have literally no effect on the world besides your visual aesthetics which is so far from the core RPG of diverging paths it might as well not even be an RPG in a story sense.
The only RPG element you can accurately use in an MMO is a player’s sense of self.
Their race, gender, color, clothes, personality etc.
That being the case, comparing covenant choices to RPG elements is an ugly bastardization of the word.
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It is not. MMORPGs have different demands than single-player games, sure, but they have many of the same design elements.
Having character-specific content in a game like WoW absolutely makes the game better. The experience on each character is different, for one thing. That was one of the best parts of Legion.
There’s nothing about the covenant design that is incompatible with an MMORPG. Maybe they got a little overly ambitious with it, but all we’re talking about here is the usual “balance” concerns in a slightly different form.
If your gonna quote me at least put the context.
That’s just good manners.
Second, you already compared this MMORPG to single-player RPG element as if they should have the same effect. Which, as you have just stated, are not the same.
So how does this tie in with covenants needing power to tie a player’s story-driven narrative?
I feel you you keep skipping over this part and then circling back to “its an RPG”. That’s not gonna fly here.
Didn’t say they where, said they aren’t comparable to a standard RPG story surrounding a diverging path narrative.
If weir all about balance why are you pressing so hard for single-player RPG elements? When separating power from the covenants will have a negligible effect if any on the player’s self-contained, individual, covenant-driven story?
If anything it will give players a better story as they can choose their own path and make up their own narrative.
I don’t agree with that at all.
The question is. Can the content be done if you do 10 to 15 percent less dps based off the choice you made? If the answer is yes, than no reason not to have it locked at all.
Not everything is a competition, and just because someone does more dps than you based off the choice they made. Does not mean you are losing out, what you pick might be more fun for you, and as long as the said content gets done that is all that matters.
The problem with the system is the community.
and i will counter by saying that perfect balance will never happen, and also having certain classes being stronger than others is ok, having shifts in power is part of the echo system of a mmo, and is part of the charm of a mmo. Just wow community takes it too far.
So keep it locked, and let the community change.
Yeah I’d appreciate it if you just left the thread again and didn’t derail it again. You are absolutely one of the least informed people who has commented in the entire thread and that’s saying something.
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I mean, yes, you can get carried through content. Not sure that’s the point though.
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You keep getting proven wrong by people, and you keep throwing hissy fits. I’m just stating how I view things, and that is derailing? Does your misery know no bounds?
I asked this question too. But as it turns out the answer is actually no. If every member in the raid has the worst choices possible you can not beat the content. The difference is that huge in the choices you make even when you have the same level of gear.