Revert all the buffs to restore the 3.4 class dps ranks or change TG to be -5% instead of -10%, and the earth will heal.
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So the bit where you complained about arms wasnāt on your agenda at all was it?
Rather figured, but yanno 
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Why are you even talking about Arms? 99% of the discussion about warriors is related to Fury or prot. Everyone assumes Arms is a dead spec theyll never help.
Arms needs insane buffs, but because warriors have kinda bad specs all around, everyone focuses on the most relevant. Arms needs like a 30% dmg boost and thats an entirely different can of worms. Having fury be good would provide at least one good option and its much closer to where it should be and would require much smaller changes to fix.
Its like with hunter - BM kind of ignored because Survival is incredible strong and MM is viable and gaining.
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You canāt revert the ret buffs because then it will put a lot of ret in the same exact spot they were when Ulduar started at the beginning of the next phase. On the bench.
Ret will require their tier and taj to even be competitive at all, and you canāt get any of that prior to Icecrown releasing.
Maybe come back to discuss after phase 4, when we can actually see how things shake up, rather than use sims to try and prove some point (by which you already point out so many times are flawed anyway.)
Because you brought them up earlier, no other reason really.
The suggesting to change TG rather than some broad change like hunters are getting in this very patch just confirms that your concerns really are just skin deep.
You want to be numbah one.
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I want a balanced game where my 5300 feral with a battle rez and innervate doesnt do more damage than my 5650 warrior that has low enough utility that as a class many raids bring 0-1.
Rets got 10% buff, Ferals got a 15-25% based on how much bear weaving you did previously, and warriors got nothing - merely shattering throw is no longer a catastrophic dps loss to cast, now its a small dps loss because it still resets your swing and sync your swing timers. Making TG -5% instead of -10% would entirely solve the problem.
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Really? You think a literal 5% flat buff would āsolve the problemā? And this isnāt about you ābeing numbah oneā? When the sims show a 50-80 dps difference on single target (giving you the benefit of the doubt and completely ignoring cleave fights here)?
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Its not 50 dps, its closer to 400 dps that Ret has over Fury. No one uses Overpower spec because it isnt useful in a raid environment, so the sim citing 50 dps gap is not accurate as almost no warriors in the top 100 use the spec used to achieve these sim numbers. A 5% buff for warrior would be about 700 dps, which would put them barely above Ret, but still below Feral. This would make the gap Warrior has over Ret smaller then the current number Ret has over Warrior.
Its a mild number to start with.
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Donāt forget, this is all assuming there are not even more flaws with the admittedly flawed data sheet we are using here.
Entirely possible ret is simming higher than they will actually perform, similar to warriors as you claim.
Only way is to wait and see.
While this is very true, we have had 3 phases to compare the sims to. In TOC (removing faction champs) Ret beats warrior on 2 of the 4 remaining fights. If anything it has seemed that warriors on warcraft logs underperform the sims in practice and in class ranking.
I raid on 5 80s, a lot on 4 of them. I will say my ele by far outperforms the sims by the most. Its not a 1 to 1 science, but you can use it to find patterns and relative power.
If warrior sims above ret in a phase but on warcraft logs ret is as good or better, this trend will continue. If ret is now simming better, it means that gap in favor of ret will increase as well.
But yes, you are correct, sims are a tool and we should always look at what happens in practice. But in practice they are very effective at prediction. I.e. sims show feral as super strong and wabam, they happen to be very strong, even #1, on some fights in phase 2 and phase 3 after the buff.
Warrior in phase 3 (as well as ret) and looking decent because of the amount of cleave fights. ToC is a very warrior favorable tier, and to see them only middle upper of the pack with tons of cleave fights is a big YIKES.
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I still donāt think blizzard will touch a class with the express purposes of buffing it or nerfing it unless it drags too far below the pack or above the pack when the class is specd in their highest dps spec.
I think thatās a good thing.
Fury used to be their floor, fury is no longer close to the floor.
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Resto was trash in TBC. You ALWAYS brought a Pally tank or you often just didnāt raid. You generally also brought a bear if you could though youāre right. Cat damage was hot garbage. Literally one of the worst dps specs in TBC along withā¦ balance druid.
What are you talking about lol? You pretty much always brought 2-3 paladins because you wanted blessings covered, so pretty much everyone brought a holy pally. Prot Pally was absolutely OP in TBC, just like wrath. Holy Pally was 2nd/3rd best healer. Priest was in a completely different tier, and you stacked shamans if you could for lust, but holy pally was usually the second highest HPS and brought blessings. Ret also brought another blessing and was easily a tier or more above cat. Their dps was usually right behind mages. Feral was competing with pvp specs
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I must have only played with horrible holy pallies, because they were trash tier in TBC. Prot was OP, because they were the only aoe tanks, so you had to bring one, and they could do everything else about as well too.
That can vary by boss though.
BFA s. priest got nerfed after crews worked out and ran a 23 s. priest setup with 2 dh tanks.
It smashed that boss. Only that boss though since made for it damn near.
And back went s. priest to its corner in the dark basement. Over a niche setup that needed 23 players who actually know how to s.priest well. and 2 dh tanks which under BFA setup self-healed pretty good on their own lol.
Their stats show they were #2 HPS throughout almost all of TBC. Hpriests were in a different tier but because of Bloodlust you usually tried to stack Shamans if you could, then brought a hpal for the blessing. But when we were speedrunning Iād normally just go disc anyway because the dps boost from PI was more important than the extra healing you really didnāt need, in which case again youāre bringing an Hpal for the blessing and then stacking all the shamans you can
Thatās very niche though. You could realistically put together a very good raid group using only rets/holy/prot that could probably clear all available content on heroic. The only thing that would really be a disadvantage is lack of buffs and you can mitigate that somewhat with consumes anyway. (and all your damage being melee too I suppose)
Retribution canāt reach that maximum sim DPS while also casting lots of utility spells. Thatās already the utility tax right there, the fact that we have to give up damage globals to cast them.
What problem? That warriors are only roughly tied for the top DPS in ICC and not 5-10% ahead?
Only in your eyes is that a problem.
Warlocks have also had battle rez this whole time while being a top DPSā¦ Why is it a problem that feral is also one? I do agree that the feral buffs were a bit unintended and should have been partially rolled back, but this utility envy is silly.
All of those top parses are a bit unrealisticā¦
They assume full perfect BiS, perfect racials, perfect play, no utility talents or GCDs usedā¦
A ret with all of their utilities isnāt beating warriors. A ret USING their utilities isnāt beating warrior sims.
Those are numbers no one sees unless their guild is carrying them alone to reach those values.
All that matters is where things are in the ballpark ranges (because the sims are also not perfect representations of in game play). As they currently stand, warrior and rets are basically tied along with like 4 other classes.
Warrior doesnāt need any buff to be ahead of the rest of the A tier DPS.
If you play better than your raid group, and are geared appropriately, warrior can top your guildās meters in ICC. You donāt need your class set better than them so you can get better numbers with less effort.
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Give Ret an AoE fixate (Zero Lights), two ArP increasing debuffs, a Disarm (Faction Champs), an AoE snare ā¦
The utility argument doesnāt hold up in my view. Both specs have utility - just different utility.
I think the class population argument is valid - and that comes down to Pallys occupying 3 solid raid roles in final phase - thus being a higher population class. But Iām not convinced we can level that at Ret specifically. Maybe balance out the Tanking and healing roles etc.
In terms of the Ret buff and comparisons with OverPower spec - I find it hard to get passionate about a 60 dps difference to be honest. Ret and Fury are for all intents and purposes on par.
Every ret on the planet right now: ācan we just have rebuke please?ā 
Especially a 60 dps theoretical difference, not even real play data. I pretty much expect all of the top DPS classes to be performing pretty similarly, with each boss having a slightly different pole position.
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