Why? 10/char
This. Most of the utility people want from us requires a GCD, which eats at DPS. Even if itâs perfectly timed and cast from a macro, which wonât be the norm. Most of the time youâll lose seconds as you go for that mouseover as well.
This is one of the only times ret is an actual competitive DPS. And of course, for some weird reason, WoWâs community ABHORS ret to the point that it just cannot happen! Oh no, the community needs to scream and throw a fit because ret is VISIBLE on the meters. It wasnât a problem in Classic Vanilla, when warrior was the only real tank AND the meta DPS. It didnât matter when you absolutely HAD to have 5 shamans in every raid for Heroism in TBC. No the only time a class that can do more than one thing well is a problem is when itâs a PALADIN. Because somehow not having to level another character is OP. After all, the amount of time and effort to gear 1 class 3 times is very little different from gearing 3 once.
âOh but they can do X Y and Z all at the same time!â No. They canât. Youâre just a moron that doesnât understand mechanics.
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tier, TAJ, and Smourne, all likely within 10 weeks on many players. Cata patch is a loooot further than 10 weeks away lol.
Your guild can only make one of these at a time.
If they give it to anyone but the ret, not within the first 10 weeks. Even by the time the first one is done, progression is over for many, and it really doesnât matter who is on top after that.
All PvE specs should be capable of mid tier DPS without a legendary. They are simply not viable if they need one to get there. You wonât bring them to progression, because they wonât have the legendary for it, and there are just flatly better options of you roll back the buffs to ret.
Ret canât even afford to drop significantly behind arcane at any point, or itâs pretty doomed as a useful spec.
Donât nerf ret/feral
Change the TG penalty to 5% instead of 10% 
This would put the perfect race/prof combo back in the lead. The whole idea of warrior DPS from the start was the claim that as we moved through we would go from bottom in Naxx to top in ICC.
As alliance this is in no way true - donât have access to the âBestâ racials so lose 200-300 DPS in every sim.
Blizzard should test internally on different % to find the right number but 5% is a good place to start (removing 10% completely would push us more than 1k ahead of everyone so not good enough).
5% puts the Troll/Prof BiS ahead of everyone and puts non-Troll slightly ahead.
A flat 5% buff to fury puts it ahead of everyone without any chance of anyone else keeping up whatsoever.
Yâall really donât understand this scaling thing do ya?
They donât balance based on their own testing anyway if they do it, they balance based on real actual raids.
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No Iâm very aware of where it puts Fury based on âBiSâ race
Iâm an alliance player and my numbers look way worse than all the publicised numbers because while Feral BiS race is Night Elf (alliance) - Warrior top two BiS races are both Horde so we end up even further behind.
Similar issue with Rets
I did the math before that post and reducing it by 3% or 4% would actually be more in line with where it should be.
Losing the troll racial for non-op specs is a loss of ~200 dps on a 180 second fight.
Adding 5% to Titanâs Grip is a gain of ~825 dps.
Yâall really canât do math.
(edit: changed target race to undead to get 200 dps in the absolute worst case scenario over troll; gnomes are 190, and humans are 180)
Fury doesnât need over a 5% DPS boost.
It did, itâs just sharing the top with a few other specs⌠just like it did the first timeâŚ
Itâs fine man, almost no one sees those numbers anyway because bosses have mechanics, and to get these numbers your entire guild needs to be playing optimally to keep the fight duration short enough.
Is that also adding in heroic presence and allowing some hit swaps for alliance?
People are focusing waaay too much on these sim numbers. They donât represent an in game number you are going to be seeing. At best they are a ballpark of ideal conditions single target DPS.
Each class handles mechanics differently,veith different amounts of losses from having to do other stuff.
Warriors, for example, handle movement a hell of a lot better than ret, which gives them better boss uptime (and thus get them closer to that ideal value).
If you ask rets to use utility, thatâs GCDs not spent in damage, and thus they move further from the ideal DPSâŚ
Itâs fine for the two specs to be in the same ballpark.
Nah, just human racial.
lmao
AM is off the GCD, and 1 GCD is also not very impactful at all in the course of an entire encounter.
Itâs pretty weird that you think people have some personal grudge against a spec of a class in a fantasy video game. Ret was pretty good in TBC and nobody complained. People are complaining now because ret is one of the chosen few specs that get changes to be stronger in this rereleased version of a very old game.
Youâre ignoring that neither of those classes was inauthentically buffed in the rerelease, like ret was.
Replenishment, AM, and all retâs buffs donât require any GCDs from them. If you have to press BoP one time in a 5 minute fight, the effect on your dps will not even be noticeable. Not buying this argument. The DSac spec is a big dps loss, having to press DSac is not.
Warrior absolutely should not be buffed. Or if any warrior spec is buffed, it should be arms or prot before fury.
Most of the focus in this thread has been on ret, because there are A LOT more paladin posters to argue with the OP than there are feral druid posters. It is World of Paladincraft, after all. But you cats arenât sneaky. Itâs time for that Naturalist nerf to be added to the OoC glyph so buffed feral is not head and shoulders above every other spec in ICC!
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true
people are crying about ret Op-ness nowâŚ
i canât wait to see what will happen when Ret with shadowmourne sky high the meters
And strategies, gearing optimizations, rotations are also all inauthentic to the time where the class balancing decisions were originally made.
Raid tuning and gearing is inauthentic to original wrath progression (Ulduar never stayed this hard, itâs gear was also never nearly this good). We still donât even know if Blizzard even PLANS to put in the ICC zone buff.
When literally everything that impacts class balancing is different, it doesnât make sense to arbitrarily leave a spec alone that fell behind in this very different version of wrath.
Ret would have been significantly buffed if it was at arms warrior levels of DPS in Ulduar. It would have been significantly buffed in ICC if it was below all of the other PvE specs before shadowmourne as well (that weapon wasnât a guarantee).
The balancing of ret worked well with how we played back then. It doesnât hold up today the way basically every other class did. Thatâs why it got buffed.
Yep, and none of those are worth being the worst DPS spec for. You get all of it elsewhere without the user being worst in their role. Why should ret be worst in role to have these?
Agreed. That would bring them down to about where the majority of top DPS specs are simming.
Woopturd also forgot about the buttons people DO demand all the time, like DSAC (which is GCD AND a lower dps spec), all of the Hand spells, and of all things DI. Whoâs brilliant idea was it to use DI as a âutilityâ spell in a boss fight and not as wipe recovery?
Always funny when someone tries to slap back⌠and misses the point completely and utterly by so much they should be embarrassed.
In a perfect world, every class would be right around the same DPS with same iLvl gear right?
Devs buffing their own class will be having a good time with a high-utility class at the top haha.
I signed up for classic not some worse-than-private server abomination
Making changes to pet QoL, minor 2% changes here and there, bug fixes, preventing DK pets from going to the moon, even things like fiery gauntlets being nerfed (but why no 70k dps rogue aoe nerf?) for classic makes sense. Giving Ret a 10-12% buff and Feral a 15%-25% buff (based on if you were a rank 1 bearweaver or a 90 parse) and totally reshuffling the class ranks was insanity.
Battle rez and innervate utility is now #1 overall dps (feral) and the #2 melee (ret) has 3% dmg, lay on hands, hand of protection, hand of sac, Dsac, cleanse, freedom, divine protection, sacred shield, replenishment, blessings, judgment of wisdom/light, etc.
Imagine your class not getting the buffs it needs because some dev plays it.
Grasping at anything because you have nothing take tbh.
Wrath classic is 10 times better than any wrath private server ever released, and itâs because of the things they have done with it.
With a few exceptions (Like the rdf delay) and not putting ulduar in a post nerf state yet.)
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What ret changes are you complaining about that are in the PTR? Or is this the changes that came with Ulduar (seal of vengeance)?
This dude is complaining for hundreds of posts not because of where Ret is now or where it has been. Heâs complaining about full best in slot ICC geared, Shadowmourne Ret Paladin DPS simulations.
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Everyone knew ret t10, TAJ, and Smourne were good on ret and that it would be good without buffs. They buffed it anyway. Everyone knew warrior wouldnt be so hot, and that it didnt actually âscale hardâ and it was left largely untouched (or even nerfed a few times haha), yet it was under the pretense that it would be good therefore it didnt need buffs. Essentially Ret and Warrior were in the same spot. Blah at the start, okay in the end. Yet only one gut a massive buff. 
And then feral just out of the blue goes to the moon with a 20% increase but thats a whole thing on its own.
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