you mean 16.5k
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No guild is going to choose to make a fire mage into arcane or take a BM hunter which is almost as bad as Arms over taking a Ret paladin. You arenât serious.
In ICC with no buffs theyre almost to where fury is going to be, and ahead of fury with the buffs, so this makes no logical sense.
The word first guild did not take a fury warrior except as you noted, they rotated one player for Algalon specifically for safety during big bang, which is a unique AOE mechanic in a HP pool intensive fight at the start of a phase when players had 226 or below illvl.
Everyone has already noted that if you find a scenario where you want commanding you bring 1 prot or 1 fury warrior, for a total of 1 warrior. Its one of the first buffs to shed or substitute as you could see how they didnât bring it on anything else.
WotLK buffs are situated to add class diversity. There is overlap and some specs fall out of favor because of it but there is a pretty clear set up going where you long wanted 1 boomkin, 1 ele, 1 feral, 1 ret, etc. All of those specs are also great dps but in a game where someone has to not be first, its always been utility classes that take the 2-5% dps hit. Typically because theyre stronger outside of raid because they always have these buffs.
I.e. my feral and shaman are insanely strong outside of raid and they themselves get limited benefits from joining raid because they themselves carry most of the important things they benefit from. By contrast a fury warrior is almost 100% dependent on a raid environment to do anything many of their valuable buffs like 20% haste, 10% ap, bleed 30% dmg, hero which heavily impacts their heroic strikes more than shred as an example, agi/str buff, etc.
TAJ does it proc off the paladin tier 10? 1000+ dps for a trinket in a game where most are 150-250 dps upgrades seems like something went kind of wrong, doesnt it?
Make titans grip -5% instead of 10% or remove the ret buff and the 450 dps favor swings back in favor of the low-utility class.
Aggrend just needs to stop making it his own private server and go back to 3.4 values.
You should get your blood pressure checked I suspect you have a high sodium content.
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Iâm just going from personal experience. Most ppl didnât do more than 11k in OG ICC with the buffs enabled.
Actually, it is a simple & significant DPS gain, to have a Hunter drop down to BM, and then replace your Retribution with Feral/Fire, if we didnât get buffed. This would especially be the play on Progression. You gain more replacing Retribution w/ Feral/Fire than you lose dropping from SV to BM, sans buffs. I think Arcane would work too, as long as Arcane isnât as bad as Arms Warrior. Unbuffed Retribution, with no SM, to Fire/Feral, is the very bottom to the very top, so unless Arcane is down there w/ Arms, it would be a DPS gain to get 3% from Arcane as well, instead of unbuffed and SM-less Retribution. By replacing ret, you have 1 less shadowmourne to give out as well.
TAJ does it proc off the paladin tier 10?
Iâm assuming you mean the opposite way around, where TAJ swings can proc 2pc T10. We havenât been able to test it yet. Another reason why you shouldnât be making blind class balance discussions based on sims. Depends if it is coded as a white attack or a special attack.
Until your raid is looking at
I can take an arcane mage that does 15k DPS, or a ret that does 13k DPS.
Then it doesnât matter that the mage could be doing 17k as fire, itâs less of a DPS loss than bringing a ret⌠so it becomes the objectively correct choice if you are trying to be optimal.
Or you do what Surv suggested, and bring a BM hunter and slot in a top tier DPS instead of the ret.
Either way your raid gains DPS.
Without buffs, ret is far behind fury. With buffs, essentially tied. Thatâs basically how they performed on average back then.
Ret wasnât immune to this. Guilds werenât using them either. If you can safely ditch commanding shout, youâve already ditched the ret DSac.
WotLK buffs were explicitly set up to diminish the value of bringing classes for utility.
Until wrath happened, and then that hit became based on being able to respec into a different role, not utilities within the class. Again, this was explicitly stated by developers at the time, and at no point in WoWâs future was utility a major balancing consideration.
It procs on almost everything a ret does, including most other procs.
It definitely seems wrong (it was a major mistake when programmed), but blizz opted to leave it alone rather than fix it and buff ret in compensation because they were happy that ret was performing among the top DPS.
There is no 450 DPS favor for ret. Removing the buff for ret doesnât put fury in a better position, it just makes ret trash tier for good guilds.
People optimized quite a bit since then. Thatâs most of why ret fell so far behind. It was probably the closest spec to optimally built and played back then, so it had the least gains from later optimizations.
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while thats fair in current togc people are passing 11k easily, its just more to say even if it was 450* dps which I dont think it is its percentage would be even smaller.
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while thats fair in current togc people are passing 11k easily, its just more to say even if it was 450* dps which I dont think it is its percentage would be even smaller.
Yeah that 450 dps number is completely made up, most of that is him removing the troll racial from the sim and slotting in a DPS neutral race and then comparing it against AM. Very disingenuous / bad faith. Only ~75-100 of that is the âOverpowerweavingâ spec. I added a new row for Fury w/o Overpower on my sheet, and Fury w/o Overpower is still effectively tied w/ Retribution. There have been minor adjustments over the last few days, such as adding Crystal Yield (~200 armor reduction).
https://tinyurl.com/ICCsimulationDPS
Using overpower spec is extremely bad faith, stop projecting. Remove the glyph, this private server shinanigans where class ranks get suffled be 12% boosts or even 20% boosts arbitrarily to some already wanted high-utility specs is dumb.
Its not made a made up number. Youre using specs and settings that arent even real to arbitrarily inflate. We can already see in ToC that ret is neck and neck or even ahead of fury and ret scales harder in ICC. Having a high utility class and spec on an already S++ tier highly sought after class getting buffed is silly, and surely the fact that Aggrend plays ret had nothing to do with it.
Its ok mate, Paladins will remain king. Donât be surprised when us pallys are top dps,tanks and heals. Your made up sims can take a walk off a reddit post.
Take it up with the warriors who submitted the sims then.
Already told you mate, there is 2 rows for Warrior and it shows both with and without. Itâs only 75-100 dps, there is also a note that says that Overpower is extremely impractical (however, it has been done successfully before multiple times, just very rarely because itâs too much work).
You accuse me of inflating the numbers by 450 DPS when 375 of that was the racial you turned off.
https://tinyurl.com/iccsimulationdps
I think you just learned the term âbad faithâ for the first time on that other thread and now youâre trying to throw it back on me, lmao.
We can already see in ToC that ret is neck and neck or even ahead of fury and ret scales harder in ICC. Having a high utility class and spec on an already S++ tier highly sought after class getting buffed is silly, and surely the fact that Aggrend plays ret had nothing to do with it.
we literally needed an intentionally broken 1500 dps trinket, a 1100 dps glyph, and legendary axe just to be the same dps as fury, and if you remember, we both started at the very bottom dps in naxx. what is wrong with your brain, why do you keep saying this when we literally have thousands of dps of broken things in our favor just to make us tied with you?
I see you are just going through your little âgreatest hitsâ there. Aggrend bad, Aggrend plays ret, High utility, S++ tier class because prot and holy are so good why is ret good
once again, you dont actually know how strong ret/feral will be, you are just guessing based off the sims, we all are, which btw, have undergone so many changes in the last week, which is exactly why you cant make these kinds of changes based on them, you need real in-game data⌠we dont have enough ICC geared PTR data yetâŚ
think weâre done here bud, youâre out of things to say
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Aggrend plays ret. We are playing classic. Ret, a highly sought after spec for the 3% buff (among many other extremely valuable utility spells) on the most popular class in the game got a 10-12% buff arbitrarily. Another low-utility class that is played far less with the same dps gets no buff. And you defend it? I get it, you play ret and love being busted and the #2 melee, but there is no practical reason to defend this besides partiality.
This can of worms should have never been opened. I was looking forward to Cata but if its going to be more arbitray private server changes then I can maybe end this hobby finally. Is Aggrend going to play combat rogue? Survival hunter? Whatâs he gonna play? Can we bet that class will get some massive arbitrary 10-20% buff as well if its not S++ #1 already?
This is classic man. We shouldnt be getting these kind of insane balance changes. Feral becoming #1 overall, beating out fire mages, UH dk, and aff locks is insane. Ret with all its utility being the #2 melee is insane. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. The sims have been accurate and demonstrating stat weights and dps gain per phase.
I understand you play ret and like the changes. Thats your only logical argument. Partiality. I get it. Fair enough. But for anyone interested in actual game balance we should be using 3.4 values, or changes need to be made that preserve 3.4 balance at a minimum. That was not done. They pretty much just winged it with no math and the result is absurd. The DPS given is the equivalent of multiple BiS trinket slots, far more than what was warranted.
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oh here comes the âgreatest hitsâ again
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And curiously, no one brings more than 1.
So whatâs your point?
And without those buffs, no highly optimized raid would be seeking out a ret for that buff, because it would have been the worst performing source of it, and raids donât like arbitrarily losing DPS to make rets feel better.
The guy would have hands down Shadowmourne prio, but because the ret gamer in his guild is a better player they are giving it to him first.
Without the buff it would have gone to him regardless of how good the ret plays.
Itâs comedy at this point.
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Itâs worse when you start realizing that thereâs a ton of things that arenât the 3.4 valuesâŚ
Naxx, Ulduar, Ulduar gear⌠which carried into ToC⌠Relative class balancing with new skill levels⌠most of what we have been playing isnât on 3.4 values.
Why is how much damage ret does something that must not be touched?
they should buff all class for about 5k dps so i can go in and out of ICC #ezfix