ppl absolutely figured it out in vanilla…
It wasn’t the “meta” at the time. People didn’t optimize it to be “the most broken thing” etc.
Even top guilds were using like 8 warriors in Naxx tier sets for tanking their 4 horsemen kills.
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only because warriors were patched in aq, and almost no one was trying to play dps warrior. but it was the most broken.
in development you tackle the biggest problems first. smaller problems dont get fixed. That’s not intent, it’s time/fiscal constraints.
They had plenty of time to number tweak from the start of AQ, and did so to many other classes.
Warriors just weren’t performing at levels that demanded nerfs back then.
Hell, basically every class doubled their output from the original Naxx runs.
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Smeet said they nerfed it for rogue in 2010 ICC and specifically left Paladin interactions. If they purposefully left it like that, then yes, it was likely intentional game design, even if you disagree with it. It’s pretty good evidence they thought it was fine, or not broken enough to change. It’s unusual for a trinket to be so powerful for one class, and it is absolutely bonkers, but that’s authentic to WOTLK, and it balanced us after so many class changes.
You are the one arguing for #somechanges. Now your argument shifts to claiming that Blizzard was wrong about how they designed TAJ, or that they made it too strong unintentionally and never noticed. It’s like you guys want to pick and choose authenticity for some stuff, and not for others. The authentic experience in 2010 was Retribution doing really good damage, (not just in ICC either, but all expansion) and TAJ being over 1000 dps.
Blizzard’s main concern when it comes to Retribution and the buffs, is to not affect class representation and to avoid having Retribution stacking (aka making us #1 DPS). This is clear when reading the blue post. And none of that is a concern right now.
Its been the lowest represented class overall, despite warrior being an EXTREMELY popular arhcetype.
Once again, holy/prot representation is not a justification for nerfing Retribution. Retribution parses dropped 55% after Aggrend’s post stating they would not be buffing Retribution. It fell off a cliff. We were unviable going into Ulduar progression, and Arcane was the clear winner for the 3% damage buff.
It was not okay just because prot/holy were good classes, that just means that we would be forced to respec or reroll. If Prot Warrior was the meta tank spec, and Warriors over-represented, should that have any impact on class balance changes to Fury? No. Fury is a very well represented spec on logs these days, even if Warrior overall isn’t.
Again, Prot/Holy representation being so high is exactly what HURTS us, because they bring all the exact same utility (other than 3% damage).
ok first, fury warriors should be ahead of rets in icc full bis… rets cant even use armor pen and we finally get to reach hardcap… idk if you even read the first post but there is not a single spec that brings more raid utility/buffs/debuffs than ret. If having them top the meters seems balanced to you then you’re delusional.
Just because we aim for different stats than you is not a reason why we should be “below Fury”. That is irrelevant. It is authentic for Retribution to be a high damage spec, throughout the expansion. Utility is already being brought by prot/holy, which are meta classes and will be brought regardless. It’s been explained a few times already. A 5th set of salv/sac/bop/dsac is not super impactful. Going DSAC is already a DPS tax. So is casting utility over DPS spells.
Our 3% damage is the one claim to fame:
You can simply do the math - if we lost the buff, then it would be more DPS to drop your Retribution, have your Hunter drop down to BM for 3% damage, and add another Fire/Feral instead. Even in ICC gear. Then you have one less Shadowmourne to worry about, as well. That is absolutely what would happen for guilds chasing the meta on progression, we would instantly become unviable for a DPS-oriented raid structure.
We won’t be topping the DPS meters with these buffs anyway, everyone is going based off simulations at this point, and Fire/Feral sim 500-1000 DPS ahead of us, (again, add 350-515 for DSAC) if they even end up being accurate. We are pretty much tied with Fury/MM/Spriest. So we are more like a “Top 5” class when we are AM spec, than a “Top DPS” class at this rate. We won’t be able to outDPS Feral/Fire. Yeah, I do think that is balanced. Balanced doesn’t mean “middle of the pack”, it means kept from being too high or too low compared to everyone else. If you took away the buff, we would be anything but “balanced”. Try unviable.
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all the classes were supposed to get changes, but shaman didn’t
time is a massive constraint
you are just making bs up
You are referring to the major class reworks, which take a hell of a lot more time than
“x skill now does 10% less damage” style changes.
The former takes significant development time. The latter does not.
That’s literally why they always wait to do number tuning last with new expansion cycles, because it’s the easiest thing to change.
Fury was not a major outlier in vanilla WoW.
It wasn’t until classic that the optimizations made it one.
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that was just an example… you are intentionally ignoring the pt
unresolved bugs aren’t design intent
They become that when they are known, widely used, and left alone for a year while you do class balancing passes.
At that point you are balancing around the bug.
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no, that’s utter bs you made up, because you don’t want a bug fixed. just stop
Paladins used TaJ in icecrown. It was well known to be our best in slot trinket.
It was well known to be overpowered. (The trinket got a hotfix to weaken it for rogues, but left it alone for ret)
Blizzard did class balancing, while rets were using it, without touching either rets, or the trinket.
Thus, ret DPS was at where the devs were happy with, including a bug.
So therefore, the bug is part of the intended balancing of ret. If they had fixed it, they likely would have buffed ret in other ways to keep their DPS where they were happy with it.
So we either
A. Kept TaJ broken so rets were good
B. Broke TaJ, and buffed ret back to where it was with TaJ (the DPS rets did that the devs were happy with)
Option A was the lower effort option.
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stop lying and just say you want to be op in icc lol
Only in weird warrior land is where rets are simming in full best in slot “OP”
And if rets are OP, then warriors, whom are basically tied with ret, must also be OP.
But no, [insert niche utility ret has] makes it not OP for warrior to be this good, they need buffs to be better!
So, somehow, this level of DPS is simultaneously OP for ret, but underpowered for warrior. Really, warriors are just mad that they aren’t number 1 by a mile, or they are mad that ret isn’t at the bottom where warriors feel they belong. Maybe a mix of the two.
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All this number crunching is how you got retail homogeneity.
Why would a warrior ever battle shout? If you have one in raid he is commanding, otherwise why bring him haha.
THeyre very strong when you fewer paladins but as you get more they dont stack, but its still weird for you to focus here among their very powerful overall kit. Things like 3% raid damage, salv, hand of protection and hand of sacrifice, lay on hands, freedom, and the chance to spec into Dsac are all extremely strong and warrant more attention.
Saying this is like saying battle rez isnt good or innervate isnt good “cuz you can just not die or use too much mana.” The reality is it has the potential to be incredibly strong, especially when fights are hard or youre still progressing.
Re 3% dmg, its not because of the buff. Paladins bright respectable damage without the buff. Remember, with the buff theyre sometimes ahead of fury warrior currently and in ICC will just straight up be ahead. The problem is the other class that can bring it is Arcane mage, which you dont want to bring, as you want them to be fire. DERP.
Some raids opt to just drop the buff entirely - see world first naxx and ulduar runs lmao. If you hit a hitch and want some more stam an imp will cover most of the buff, reducing the benefit even further of choosing warrior, but the convenience of the warrior’s makes it optimal to use warrior for the buff if you desire the buff.
Considering its low utility, and considering where its at on warcraft logs, its not in a good spot. Being lower than utility classes as a low-utility class is not a good spot. Having the optimal count of your class being 0-1 still is not a good spot.
ToC is an extremely cleave centric raid, making warriors less useless (similar to Obsidian Sanctum) but when you consider that fact and realize theyre still a middle of the pack class, yikes. That would be like saying that feral is brought for swipe or locks for seed but on 10 count add fights theyre middle maybe middle-upper of the pack. Just yikes.
If 252 kings or scaling had any truth to it, Warrior would be #1 in ToC since almost everything has some form of 2-5 mob cleave happening.
It wasnt, it was with fury warrior, except it was also more useful than fury warrior. Now with buffs its just simply going to be ahead of warriors. Yikes.
While blood dps is better than arms warrior (lol) I can’t take you serious after this last paragraph.
Blood is only around 4% worse DPS than Frost right now. More like 8-9% on Anub.
How broken was it for Rogues? What if they revert that to bring Rogue up a bit so it’s not so far below the rest of melee?
Why wouldn’t you?
If you are talking about bringing a ret for blessing of might (the second most useful blessing) warrior can also do it.
You need one, singular blessing from a paladin, the rest are conveniences so other classes don’t have to push the button.
And without the buffs, you don’t bring a ret for any of it, because none of them are game changers, and without the damage buffs, there is a better source of all of it.
None of those things are ANYWHERE near as good as a battle rez. Even all of them together are less good than a battle rez.
They really don’t by today’s standards. They just get dropped from any optimized raid in favor of an arcane mage or even a BM hunter for 3% damage, because you don’t need any more paladin utilities after your holy/prot.
Right, but arcane is better than unbuffed ret, so your raid loses less DPS by bringing the arcane mage than bringing the ret.
Not going to bother looking for the world first Naxx because you could clear that place at level 70, but world first Ulduar absolutely used commanding shout. Algalon was nearly impossible without it early on.
Top third in overall damage and middle of the pack on single target before your next phase is bad?
No DPS spec is carried to raids on its utility. That was TBC design.
It was under arms before the buffs… fury had a 1k DPS lead on it…
Tiny abomination in a Jar originally also triggered off of poisons (spell hits), which was removed in a hotfix.
Proc documentation was really bad back then, but it’s likely that hotfix also nerfed it a bit for rets with vindication.
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That’s not some enormous gap when ppl will be pulling 10k DPS.
Smeet found this old ICC data:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/534914-world-of-warcraft/55886296
Here’s an old post pulling some icecrown data (with 30% buff) from back in the day.
Ret definitely was performing very highly back then, so the buffs keep it in line with how it was performing back then.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100419203056/http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/dps/
Here is the archived WorldOfLogs pages, not many archives were made though during this date range, so the data is quite limited, April 19 2010 being one of the major archives. This is a few weeks after HLK died for the first time, and the buff was 10% at this time. If you go back to Feb 27, that archive is a week before the 5% buff, but has no heroic data, and is also 3 weeks before the first Shadowmourne was completed on March 16. So the April 19 data is only a month after that, I’m sure Shadowmournes were still limited in number.
You can go further out, but you have to deal with a higher buff%.
Here is May 11 when it was 15% buff.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100511193120/http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/dps/
Here is Feb 17 Normal data from Elitist Jerks. Before any Shadowmournes were crafted and with 0% buff. Shows Retribution and Fury not too far apart on most fights, and Retribution performing pretty well in general. Also an image of the chart.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100219060447/http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t92564-world_logs_top_performers_per_spec_icc_normal/
https://web.archive.org/web/20100810135526im_/http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4093/100216dps2.png