Premades have completely ruined the PvP BG experience. Do something already

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Adroi-tichondrius

Edit 2: For clarity sake, there is a very simple solution to this problem.

Currently, these groups will sync and all queue at the same time to stack a BG. If they don’t all get the same queue pop, they drop. Likewise, if they join and someone did miss, they’ll leave the active BG. The fix? Penalize players for constantly leaving queues. A few dropped queues is no big deal. These players consistently drop their queue or leave matches. While this wouldn’t completely stop the practice, it would make it more difficult.

So, to discuss your ‘solution’ which was edited in after the fact.

Here are the results of implementing this: you place a deserter-adjacent debuff on anyone who has to drop queue for some arbitrary number of consecutive pops. Sure, we can say this will largely affect people abusing it more than genuine use cases, but genuine use cases are nevertheless affected.

You may be right, this may make the practice harder… but as you say, they’re already willing to drop the match as well to coordinate this queue. Which does already incur a penalty.

So I will reiterate; why aren’t we looking at a more elegant solution, and one that tries to fix the issues at the root, rather than trying to socially engineer people into a behavior you want?

The cross-faction solution seems incredibly elegant, and apropos to the changing times in WoW as a whole. If I had to pick from the proffered options in this thread and beyond, that would be mine.

@Adroi-tichondrius

Sure bud. Fix your lies.

Or will my ‘lies’ distract you too much to give an apt response, Adroi?

[Snozay-area-52]

@Carrasco-mannoroth

No they haven’t my guy. This started to gain traction in Shadowlands.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

I was doing epic premades in Cataclysm and WoD

@Carrasco-mannoroth

Shadowlands.
If I was carried that means I am no good at the game so we can duel?

Idk how many times I have to tell you that you aren’t worth me wasting my time in a duel because you can’t handle reality on things you don’t have a clue in.

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

The 2019 post was about how two people ending up in the same epic BG isn’t a reportable offense.

You’re trying to justify 15-25 people ending up in the same epic BG when the queue doesn’t allow you to queue as a raid.

These are not the same thing. It is against the rules to circumvent this obstruction. Otherwise they’d just let you do it.

They literally state that groups of people queuing together at the same time while in voice isn’t exploiting.

[Snozay-area-52]

@Marosela-stormrage

Just for the record, nothing blew in my face and you had no “points” to begin with. No one needs to “discredit” you, you do that yourself.
And don’t bother answering, because I won’t read it. Have a great day!

Whatever you need to tell yourself so you can cope.

Imagine being so delusional you think saying a guy has zero pvp experience with an arena exclusive title and 2200 achievements doesn’t pvp.

Yeah nothing blew up in your face at all rofl

[Carrasco-mannoroth]

Claim that I have no idea what I am talking about yet you wont duel me, this is what I love about competition, you can prove who is better but in your case you talk the talk but refuse to walk the walk.

“You aren’t worth me wasting my time in a duel”
Okay sure, you are just afraid to get embarrassed and trust me this duel will be quick. I can even record it and post it on this thread.

[Petdetective-pagle]

@Carrasco-mannoroth

Yes we can but your rebuttals make no sense.

They make perfect sense when read.

@Carrasco-mannoroth

I solo queue and play with friends, difference is if there are more than 5 of us we queue Rated Battlegrounds.

That’s great for you. Not everyone has to play the game the way you do.

@Carrasco-mannoroth

No all modes don’t reward gear

Random bgs do. Solo shuffle does. 3s do. 2s do. rbgs do. battleground blitz do. rotating bg game modes do.

Stop lying.

@Snozay-area-52

@Carrasco-mannoroth

No they haven’t my guy. This started to gain traction in Shadowlands.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

I was doing epic premades in Cataclysm and WoD

Look at his achievements. He started playing the game in Shadowlands. He has no idea what he’s talking about.

[Adroi-tichondrius]

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

Honestly Adroi, you’re gonna get what you give. It’s unfair for you to insult them, there’s no reason for the part above that.

Again, totally get your vantage point and don’t disagree that that is likely the better approach.

I see it like this though. These people are bullies. They do it in game. They do it on the forums. I don’t like them. I will not give them an inch. They are knowingly ruining this game. They knowingly ruin the game for other players and enjoy it.

It’s this in a nutshell.

Step 1: It’s not really happening
Step 2: Yeah, it’s happening, but it’s not a big deal
Step 3: It’s a good thing, actually
Step 4: People freaking out about it are the real problem

That’s where we are. We are at the place where players like me are tired of it and they want to make it look like we’re the problem. I get it. The multibox crowd did the same thing. They even went so far as to mass report me and get me suspended. They harassed me in game. Harrassed me here.

Same story on repeat.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

I believe there were some misunderstandings early and you really shouldn’t carry on this vitriol.

I get it’s a long post, but just look at their first responses. They dismiss the issue and agree with the player dismissing the problem completely.

They made no effort to ask me what I meant and then immediately said I said something I didn’t. That’s not a good person. I repeatedly asked them to clarify a point and they ignored it. They could just delete the basic lies.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

So, to discuss your ‘solution’ which was edited in after the fact.

This is my problem with you.

I made the edit before you made the comment. I added the edit because I had already made the point later in the thread and wanted it to be easier for players to see. Thats it.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

So I will reiterate; why aren’t we looking at a more elegant solution, and one that tries to fix the issues at the root, rather than trying to socially engineer people into a behavior you want?

The root is there are players who want to disrupt the game. They aren’t good people.

One of the guilds is called RUIN GAMING. Can we have a moment of honesty and say a guild named RUIN GAMING may just want to ruin the game? That’s their intent. That’s their aim. They not only make premades, but they ruin world PvP as well. Doing Shadowlands they would completely lockdown zones forcing players to turn warmode off.

For players who enjoy that aspect of the game, it sucks. But even that is a minor annoyance. Doing it in BGs, especially when there are quests todo actually prevents players from even playing.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Or will my ‘lies’ distract you too much to give an apt response, Adroi?

Look man, you intentionally mischaracterized what I said and didn’t retract it. I gave you a ton of examples of where I made it clear what my thoughts were.

[Snozay-area-52]

@Carrasco-mannoroth

Claim that I have no idea what I am talking about

It’s not a claim. You have shown on multiple occasions you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

@Carrasco-mannoroth

about yet you wont duel me

Because it’s a waste of time.

@Carrasco-mannoroth

this is what I love about competition, you can prove who is better but in your case you talk the talk but refuse to walk the walk.

This has zero to do with “competition”. This is a discussion that facts matter.

Winning a duel has zero effect on the facts.

[Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord]

@Adroi-tichondrius

I see it like this though. These people are bullies

The problem is you’re stuck in tribalism, the only one I can see as being one posting against you is Snoz.

@Adroi-tichondrius

I don’t like them. I will not give them an inch

You don’t have to, but if you do it while being unneccesarily rude and attacking them then what do you think will become of it? It just ends in a circular argument, where people are left not reading most of the thread because it’s garnered over a thousand posts.

Snow was trying to help and was pointing at potential solutions that could resolve things and make BGs better in general.

@Adroi-tichondrius

The multibox crowd did the same thing

The problem is you’re connecting everybody to be like a whole part of the group and a hivemind that all think and do the same things, this is not the case even from the posts in this thread alone.

@Adroi-tichondrius

They dismiss the issue and agree with the player dismissing the problem completely.

Initially I think there was some misunderstanding on what you were asking for and what the actual issue is. The longer a thread goes on the more things get muddled in back and forth.

@Adroi-tichondrius

The root is there are players who want to disrupt the game. They aren’t good people.

Not everyone that does premades to circumvent the 5 limit understand how it affects other players, and two there’s no other solution in game. At least if you’re in a premade group like that, you either ARE the premade so you don’t face them, or you have a better chance at dealing with another premade group. There are some in those groups that know what they’re doing and enjoy the problems it causes, but you should take it as those specific people and not the whole group.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Adroi-tichondrius

I made the edit before you made the comment. I added the edit because I had already made the point later in the thread and wanted it to be easier for players to see. Thats it.

Yes. I am aware. However, my problem with you is that you don’t give anyone the time of day long enough to understand what their point is, or what they’re saying.

You didn’t enter this thread with good intentions. You entered it with accusations, broadly and then specific later on as people disagreed with you (insisting Snozex is participating in premades, for example.)

@Adroi-tichondrius

The root is there are players who want to disrupt the game. They aren’t good people.

There are also players who want 40v40 casually, but with large groups of friends.

@Adroi-tichondrius

Can we have a moment of honesty and say a guild named RUIN GAMING may just want to ruin the game?

…I have no clue if you’re serious, or not, but no. Without any context as for the reason behind their name, it is ridiculous to assume using the name “ruin gaming” is a call to action rather than a moniker. Likely because “ruin nation” is a clever play on words.

https://www.ruinnation.com

Their website. They play in more than WoW, and I have interacted with people at bare minimum identifying with their group. Perfectly normal people. (This was in SWTOR, if it matters and if you have GENUINE extra context to add.)

So the entire premise that I should hate them because their name fits some lofty criteria you’ve set, I’m going to ignore. I’ll even apologize for it, though I think it a hollow notion.

@Adroi-tichondrius

Look man, you intentionally mischaracterized what I said and didn’t retract it.

I’ll give you a chance to explain it, then.

Why are you referring to them as cheaters, ad nauseum, despite the prospect being nebulous at best, wrong at worst?

Don’t drag this into a semantics war over what ‘cheaters’ means, and be honest that there are conflicting reports about whether or not it’s an exploit - generally trending toward: Not an exploit, unless aided by third party (addon or otherwise.)

If you can address that without the semantics war you’ve been engaging in for the past week, I’ll apologize for ‘mischaracterizing.’ If you cannot, I will accept my W and give my rightful “I told you so” to Ravenas.

And just to clarify. I can still say “yeah this sucks, and I’m sorry for you” without agreeing that they’re exploiting or cheating. The game design can suck. The decisions Blizzard makes or doesn’t make can suck. I’m never going to blame players for operating under those conditions they didn’t create.

[Adroi-tichondrius]

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

the only one I can see as being one posting against you is Snoz.

Anyone who agreed with them. They expressly did just that.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

unneccesarily rude and attacking them then what do you think will become of it? It just ends in a circular argument, where people are left not reading most of the thread because it’s garnered over a thousand posts.

I don’t see responding in kind as being rude. If they want to keep it respectful, then I’ll respond that way. There are other people posting here I disagree with and the conversation is normal. Only a few people here are intentionally trying to disrupt the conversation and also belittle the complaint being made.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

The problem is you’re connecting everybody to be like a whole part of the group and a hivemind that all think and do the same things, this is not the case even from the posts in this thread alone.

i’m not.

I made an example. That’s all. I quickly clarified why I said that. It’s the mentality of the player.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

Initially I think there was some misunderstanding on what you were asking for and what the actual issue is.

They could have asked for clarification and did not. They instead agreed with the person who has been openly trolling this thread.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

Not everyone that does premades to circumvent the 5 limit understand how it affects other players, and two there’s no other solution in game. At least if you’re in a premade group like that, you either ARE the premade so you don’t face them, or you have a better chance at dealing with another premade group. There are some in those groups that know what they’re doing and enjoy the problems it causes, but you should take it as those specific people and not the whole group.

For sure. I’m not saying literally everyone is, but the majority are. The majority of players can be honest and say “this doesn’t look like fun for the other team.” I know. I tried it. Back in BC there was an external program you could run to get your entire group into AV. I did it a few times and realized what was happening and stopped playing with those players.

In the end, it’s for that reason I’m not looking for actual punishment, just a fix. Plenty of ways to fix this.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

you don’t give anyone the time of day long enough to understand what their point is

You didn’t ask.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

There are also players who want 40v40 casually, but with large groups of friends.

Blizzard removed that option for a reason. It was being disruptive and abused.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

…I have no clue if you’re serious

Very serious. I PvP. You don’t.

I see first hand how these players ruin the experience for others players. It’s not about being fun or being competitive. They remove the challenge of random play or a random world event and make the game unplayable for players who enjoy that content.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

I’ll give you a chance to explain it, then.

Why are you referring to them as cheaters, ad nauseum, despite the prospect being nebulous at best, wrong at worst?

Don’t drag this into a semantics war over what ‘cheaters’ means, and be honest that there are conflicting reports about whether or not it’s an exploit - generally trending toward: Not an exploit, unless aided by third party (addon or otherwise.)

I have clarified this. They are cheating the system. This system at one time allowed for raids to join. Now it doesn’t.

Take words at their most basic definition. This isn’t a game of semantics. This is such a joke man. Words have meaning. Because you don’t like how I’m using the word doesn’t change that.

Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

That’s what they are doing. They are acting unfairly to gain an advantage.

This is what the CoC says. Blizzard’s words.

engaging in any activity that grants an unfair advantage is considered cheating.

This is mind boggling. It’s right there. ANY ACTIVITY. Any. How is that not clear? How is this not cheating?

The problem here is that YOU have an idea of what cheating is and isn’t. I clearly have a different idea. Looking at Blizzard’s own rules it’s clear to me, yet you’re arguing about it.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

The problem is you’re stuck in tribalism, the only one I can see as being one posting against you is Snoz.

I trust I can rest my case, Ravenas?

[Shadybolt-thrall]

@Adroi-tichondrius

Take words at their most basic definition. This isn’t a game of semantics. This is such a joke man. Words have meaning. Because you don’t like how I’m using the word doesn’t change that.

Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

That’s what they are doing. They are acting unfairly to gain an advantage.

This is what the CoC says. Blizzard’s words.

And Blizzard’s words are on the subject matter:
It is allowed. So no, it isn’t cheating.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

I’ll give you a chance to explain it, then.

Why are you referring to them as cheaters, ad nauseum, despite the prospect being nebulous at best, wrong at worst?

Don’t drag this into a semantics war over what ‘cheaters’ means, and be honest that there are conflicting reports about whether or not it’s an exploit - generally trending toward: Not an exploit, unless aided by third party (addon or otherwise.)

If you can address that without the semantics war you’ve been engaging in for the past week, I’ll apologize for ‘mischaracterizing.’ If you cannot, I will accept my W and give my rightful “I told you so” to Ravenas.

I believe you have, rightfully earned the right to say: “I told you so.”

To me it is astonishing that they can’t get it into their head that their interpretation of established reality doesn’t matter. Blizzard sets the rules, their rules dictate whether something is cheating or not.
I sincerely don’t get why they cannot understand that.

[Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord]

@Snowpine-ghostlands

I trust I can rest my case, Ravenas?

Sure, but just remember that returning the vitriol back really didn’t solve any problems in the thread either.

@Shadybolt-thrall

And Blizzard’s words are on the subject matter:

I mean technically, the way most people are using it now (With an addon) Would be against their ruling. The addon I know of is called Battleground Commander, not sure if there’s more. I just know in the communities and groups you see a lot of ‘queue popped’ messages pop up automatically and a lot of ‘groups 1-3-5 queue did not pop’ and then ‘drop queue’.

While they got 3 groups to pop, the rest didn’t - they all drop. Which causes battlegrounds to start with far less players on one or both sides, usually one side. I see a bunch of BGs where because of the large groups not accepting queues they start the game down 20+ players in epics, or in regular BGs down 5-10 players. It’s very demoralizing for it to happen, so it affects more than just the games where the premades do make it in.

It’s hard to know what Blizzard actually considers to be against rules or not because they often leave stuff to fester so long without an answer, and don’t enforce much of their rules. (See the report griefing/throwing report option, which as far as anyone can tell doesn’t do anything).

Awkward wording of policies and different interpretations makes things harder to understand/justify. It would help a ton if devs communicated on such things to assuage concerns and give clear answers

[Adroi-tichondrius]

@Shadybolt-thrall

And Blizzard’s words are on the subject matter:
It is allowed. So no, it isn’t cheating.

Disagree. Blizzard has not made a clear statement on the issue.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

I trust I can rest my case, Ravenas?

You guys ask for a thoughtful opinion and this is the response?

Got it.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

Sure, but just remember that returning the vitriol back really didn’t solve any problems in the thread either.

It’s weird to me that you expect me and other people responding to be above this. Honestly confusing. Why not first address the people being disruptive?

Unfortunate regardless.

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

It would help a ton if devs communicated on such things to assuage concerns and give clear answers

I’ll agree that is the crux of the issue.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Ravenas-wyrmrest-accord

Sure, but just remember that returning the vitriol back really didn’t solve any problems in the thread either.

Granted, but treating them like children is mildly amusing to me. I’m no saint.

[Adroi-tichondrius]

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Granted, but treating them like children is mildly amusing to me. I’m no saint.

Don’t be above what you clearly are.

[Snozay-area-52]

@Adroi-tichondrius

Don’t be above what you clearly are.

Ok Mr Morton

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Adroi-tichondrius

what you clearly are.

Which is what? I’ve never claimed to be a nice or even a good person.

[Adroi-tichondrius]

No need to state the obvious. I don’t think anyone would assume you are.

@Snozay-area-52

Ok Mr Morton

This you bud?

@Snozex-area-52

Bad pvpers are complaining about it.

[Snozay-area-52]

@Adroi-tichondrius

This you bud?

Yep. I have never said otherwise.

I see you’re super desperate now.

It’s ok Mr Morton