Premades have completely ruined the PvP BG experience. Do something already

[Shantarin-kelthuzad]

@Snozay-area-52

That’s 100% incorrect.

What happens when you attempt to queue up for an epic bg as a raid? Oh right, it doesn’t let you.

@Snozay-area-52

Once in 2007 and reaffirming in 2019 that multiple groups of 5 doing a vocal countdown is not cheating or an exploit.

Epic BG’s as a queueable category didn’t exist in 2007. Wrath of the Lich King wasn’t even out my dude, we were still in Burning Crusade, there was exactly one BG that size.
And no they did not, otherwise you would have lead with that rather than insisting it exists.

You’re not allowed to queue as a raid, ergo any attempt to circumvent that is exploiting the game’s systems. If you told me it wasn’t a priority fix for Blizzard or that they didn’t really care I’d believe it but what you’re describing simply isn’t true.

it’s also endemic of a wider issue where mouth breathing PVP’ers will justify creating a worse experience for someone else as long as they can have fun at the other player’s expense. Which is emblematic of the average WoW PVP’er and is also why no one actually plays PVP anymore.

@Kaledin-uther

All found here but whatever

That’s not saying what people claim is being said. In fact they say outright that going outside of two people happening to queue up at the same time is probably cheating the system.

@Snozay-area-52

And even if I was it’s not an exploit.

If you’re abusing the queue system to get north of 5 people together in an epic BG by bypassing the restriction on queued party size, you’re exploiting the system. This isn’t up for debate, using a workaround to circumvent player behavior that is otherwise impossible per the game’s own rules and systems is an exploit.

@Snozay-area-52

When the main point of someone’s argument is that it’s an exploit and should be fixed then ignores multiple blue posts saying it’s not an exploit means they don’t have any argument and it’s all relevant.

Then why are you not allowed to queue for epic BG’s as a raid?

@Bloomsday-sulfuras

It’s more like two high school teams compete against each other and one team is better coordinated than the other. The worse team is now complaining that other teams are better than them.

It’s more like one team has an Olympic gold medalist for a coach, sponsorship deals with athletic wear companies and trains at private gyms that have personal doctors and trainers and are allowed to take time off school for additional practice while the other team is illiterate, speaks no common language, 4 robots replaced humans on the team, half them don’t even own a phone, and have only even played the game in theory.

The problem with premades is that their baseline is well above the average of any given pug. Especially when you factor in bots. Especially when you factor in the fact that match making doesn’t care about gear. No amount of communication is going to account for the fact that one team is just better geared than the other. And I don’t mean the difference of 5 or 10%, I mean that the difference between the best and worst PVP gear in an expansion is the difference between getting two or three-tapped.

@Méòw-moon-guard

The title still stands with the “ruined” portion even if everything is ToS friendly.

It’s not TOS friendly. The CS rep said two people ending up in the same BG isn’t a reportable offense. You’re still now allowed to queue as a raid for epic BG’s. Having more than five people (and typically more like 15, 20) in a premade group magically ending up in the same epic BG is exploitive, regardless of what any Blizzard rep says because it’s explicitly not allowed by the game itself.

The problem with premades isn’t complicated, and the reasons people want them aren’t either; they want easy matches against teams that don’t stand a chance against them. You know this because they seek out epic BG’s and then exploit the queue system in a way which virtually guarantees they’ll fight pugs since the only way they’d have a fair match is if both factions had people exploiting the queue.

And then like every other time it’s been attempted, the people would quit because the kind of person who exploits the queue system for epic bg’s is also not interested in anything resembling a fair fight.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

The call to action of this thread is banning and making officially condemnable. Not fixes.

The OP calls for doing ‘something.’ At no point do they suggest someone get banned, stop lying.

@Snozay-area-52

Every one has access to pvp add ons rofl.

Why PVP is the least popular feature in WoW, in a nutshell.

[Nobully-blackrock (Nobully)]

@Kaledin-uther

Look as sports. Blowouts happen all the time without cheating and that is fine. If there is cheating though, then it is an issue.

sounds like a terrible example.

people are paid to throw games all the time.

…and it’s already been established that “1, 2, 3 queue” isn’t cheating.
it’s odd to me that people are more concerned about this, than the state of bots in bgs. (which IS cheating)
i guess an easy HK is an easy HK though… right?

@Primalmatter-stormrage

Make it so you can only solo queue for randoms

these groups are using solo queues.

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

You’re not allowed to queue as a raid, ergo any attempt to circumvent that is exploiting the game’s systems.

weird.
blue posts have confirmed otherwise.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

The OP calls for doing ‘something.’ At no point do they suggest someone get banned, stop lying.

I’m not lying, nor being dishonest.

@Adroi-tichondrius

These players are no different than the multiboxers. They found a way to exploit the game and gladly do it at the expense of other players.

What happens to players that do this, Shantarin?

Don’t waste time responding. You knew when you read all the things I posted that this was the case, because I already pointed it out. Willful ignorance is inexcusable.

[Shantarin-kelthuzad]

@Snowpine-ghostlands

What happens to players that do this, Shantarin?

They don’t get banned? They can keep their accounts, they just have to stop multi-boxing.

Again, stop lying.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

They don’t get banned?

Botters, which is what he’s referring to, do get banned. Regularly, in waves.

Multiboxers that utilize automation do get banned. Regularly. In waves.

You know. The ones that actually are considered exploiting? The point OP was making?

Being intentionally dense does not support your braindead point, it just makes you look braindead to anyone with half a mind to bother sifting through this garbage.

The discussion is and has been stagnant for days.

If you want to go anywhere with it, you have to let go of the idea that people who are under the impression they’re not breaking any rules are the problem.

Who is to blame, Shantarin? Blizzard, or the people that are definitively not exploiting, per the most recent claim?

Is it worth dying on the hill to say it’s an exploit despite this claim, or should you look for solutions to the problem?

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

Again, stop lying.

You lack the intellect to keep up in any capacity with me in a conversation. Don’t accuse me of things I did not and have not done unless you can provide something other than “stop x”

It’s asinine. You all act like children.

[Bloomsday-sulfuras]

@Arrowlad-aerie-peak

One team is using external tools to communicate and coordinate, is usually top geared AND using multiple addons to improve their advantages to the maximum.

And the other team made the choice not to, because they have instead chosen to be lazy. The lazy team now went to the leaders of the high school division to complain that not everyone is as lazy as them.

@Kaledin-uther

Picking and choosing the information on a topic, that just happens to fit your side, is not honest.

No, I’m picking and choosing information based on its merit. Information from 5 years ago is objectively better than information from 12 or 17 years ago. Ironically, the only one picking and choosing information is you.

You are exclusively talking about the most outdated information you can because it’s the ONLY information you have. You will fail to convince.

[Trustlvlfour-zuljin]

This is most interesting. Can you please link me that dax post you quoted? Because it most definitely runs counter to the narrative some people are using vraks post to mean.

It would be interesting to see the clash between the 2 blues lol.

[Brewbaker-farstriders]

@Snozay-area-52

Killing time at work my guy.

I’d say having a happy family and providing is having a life.

Thanks for proving you have no argument.

You’re a reply guy and an incredibly repetitive one. I hope you’re getting it out of your system at work and not exposing other humans to this “I’m right and if you disagree I’ll wear you out like a robot until you give up” habit.

Blocked or muted or something.

[Brewbaker-farstriders]

I have a friend who used to play some kind of (non varsity) hockey in school, and every year they would play the Army.

He was also a taekwondo black belt and every so often this group from a particular dojang would visit. Their version of “no contact” was “generally not full contact.” Broken bones and all that.

This kind of thing. Totally fair. Everyone playing by the same rules.

Muting this thread too because been there done that now, again.

[Arrowlad-aerie-peak]

@Bloomsday-sulfuras

And the other team made the choice not to, because they have instead chosen to be lazy. The lazy team now went to the leaders of the high school division to complain that not everyone is as lazy as them.

BLIZZARD CM’s ANSWER, again, since you didn’t bother countering the posts of the ones who actually made the game:

What is true that there’s been an increase in pre-made groups disrupting the PvP experience for other players, though. Pre-mades in the normal queue, however they are formed, are not something that we’ve ever been particularly fond of. It had become more of an issue of late, so we addressed it accordingly.

So, again, like I said, scaling can make this an issue. It’s already not seen as something good, merely tolerated for its small impact on the game, when not rampant.

Regardless, what of the games that you played that weren’t against other pre-mades? Just hapless casualties to your fun, I suppose?

Based on your enthusiasm for “true Player vs Player” combat, I’m sure that you’ll find War Games and Rated Battlegrounds quite compelling.

You’ve made the assumption that all those things were accomplished expressly so that you could queue into battlegrounds as an organized group against disorganized opponents? That assumption is mistaken. If you want organized PvP against organized opponents, as you claim, that experience is readily available.

You guys don’t have a leg to stand on, on this matter, not even common sense, which is the most baffling thing about all this: you’re thinking that it’s normal.

It does indeed boil down to what Adroi has been posting about: CoC infringement.

[Nemisys-fenris]

wow i don’t know what the answer is but i do know i worry about you having an aneurism.

[Brewbaker-farstriders]

OMG why do you think removing people who drop queues from the queues would make queues longer? On its worst day I couldn’t get something this pizza glue crazy from Google Gemini.

Or even better, zoning into AV just to see 15 members of your “team” leave instantly. Yeah that’s gonna be a good one.

[Adroi-tichondrius]

@Trustlvlfour-zuljin

You have taken the fact that vrak said you can queue with other people and stretched it to potentially mean you can queue a single cohesive 20-40 man raid into max 5 man premade content.

Well put.

That this needs to be said over and over just reinforces that these people responding are not be sincere or honest. That they are trying to equate one group queuing into another vs 30-40 people doing it is laughable.

@Arrowlad-aerie-peak

Just hapless casualties to your fun, I suppose?

Sums it up well.

The lack of honesty from the people defending this when it’s obvious to everyone.

@Arrowlad-aerie-peak

That goes for Snozex and all others defending this aberration.

They won’t unfortunately. =/

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

What happens when you attempt to queue up for an epic bg as a raid? Oh right, it doesn’t let you.

@Shantarin-kelthuzad

it’s also endemic of a wider issue where mouth breathing PVP’ers will justify creating a worse experience for someone else as long as they can have fun at the other player’s expense.

Well said and great response overall.

@Nobully-blackrock

than the state of bots in bgs. (which IS cheating)

I do a lot of bgs. Bots aren’t an issue. RBGs… maybe.

@Nobully-blackrock

weird.
blue posts have confirmed otherwise.

They didn’t.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

I’m not lying, nor being dishonest.

You’re lying. I outlined specifically how to deal with this issue.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

What happens to players that do this, Shantarin?

Don’t waste time responding. You knew when you read all the things I posted that this was the case, because I already pointed it out. Willful ignorance is inexcusable.

They didn’t get banned. Most of them stopped after Blizzard said they would ban players for cheating. They didn’t go back and ban players after the rule was made. Again, more lying.

You still refuse to answer any basic question I put forward to you.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Multiboxers that utilize automation do get banned. Regularly. In waves.

You know. The ones that actually are considered exploiting? The point OP was making?

You’re literally just making stuff up at this point. What a joke. The multiboxers stopped after the rules got updated. That’s it. Quit lying.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

You all act like children.

You’re blatantly lying. You said I wanted them banned and yet said nothing even close to that. Literally fabricating your own reality.

[Kaledin-uther]

@Nobully-blackrock

sounds like a terrible example.

people are paid to throw games all the time.

…and it’s already been established that “1, 2, 3 queue” isn’t cheating.
it’s odd to me that people are more concerned about this, than the state of bots in bgs. (which IS cheating)
i guess an easy HK is an easy HK though… right?

Nobody said they were not concerned about bots, and throwing games is cheating. No clue what this has to do with what I said. If games are played fairly it doesn’t mean there won’t be a blow out. Throwing in random ideas of people throwing games is just silly.

@Nobully-blackrock

weird.
blue posts have confirmed otherwise.

Conflicting blue posts which is the whole issue. Not to mention the fact that you can queue as a solo, or group, but not a raid. Kind of telling.

This is all just arguments to muddle the waters about the fact that it is bad for epic bgs and any bg that it happens in. Still sad people think it SHOULD be that way. That’s the real debate.

I think unrated pvp should be groups and solo, not raids. End of story.

[Nobully-blackrock (Nobully)]

@Kaledin-uther

Conflicting blue posts which is the whole issue.

where’s a post stating it’s against the rules?

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Adroi-tichondrius

You’re literally just making stuff up at this point.

@Adroi-tichondrius

These players are no different than the multiboxers. They found a way to exploit the game and gladly do it at the expense of other players.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Botters, which is what he’s referring to, do get banned. Regularly, in waves.

Multiboxers that utilize automation do get banned. Regularly. In waves.

Surely, if you say I lie enough times, it will become true.

You know, because whether or not you said “banned” or not really changes the core issue of whether or not you’re arguing for a solution or for people to get punished.

It’s very important, very relevant, and you’re still lying about it anyway.

I’m sure this is the part where in desperation you say something like “moving goalposts.” So I’ll just leave this here, too.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

Who is to blame, Shantarin? Blizzard, or the people that are definitively not exploiting, per the most recent claim?

Is it worth dying on the hill to say it’s an exploit despite this claim, or should you look for solutions to the problem?

[Adroi-tichondrius]

You’re just making things up.

The multiboxxers didn’t all get banned. They just stopped using the broadcasting software. Most of them stopped. Some still post here. They didn’t retroactively ban people for it.

@Snowpine-ghostlands

You know, because whether or not you said “banned” or not really changes the core issue of whether or not you’re arguing for a solution or for people to get punished.

How incredibly dishonest. It’s pathetic. Multiple times in this thread I made it clear exactly what I wanted. You didn’t read it. That’s on you. I asked for a solution the problem. That’s it.

That you continue to push this lie is beyond me. Get over yourself. Anyone can read the thread and see exactly what I said.

Again, I keep asking you and you keep refusing to answer. Why are you defending something that is ruining the game for other players? Why?

Why can’t you answer such a basic question?

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Adroi-tichondrius

You’re just making things up.

You’re so close to making it true. Maybe you need a mirror.

[Trustlvlfour-zuljin]

@Nobully-blackrock

where’s a post stating it’s against the rules?

There isn’t one. That’s the issue. The fact is, regardless of vraks or daxxs posts on this issue (both blues), there has been no actual proper unified official statement by blizz on this issue. They eventually did for multiboxing, which finally dealt with that issue. But no such statement has been made re queueing single raid teams into multi 5 man team content where the assumption is that said independent 5 man teams would not be in actuality a well coordinated single raid team.

You are absolutely right. We need an official statement from blizz on this issue once and for all. Perhaps I should make a thread in the CS forum and ask vrak directly?

[Adroi-tichondrius]

Multiple people are calling you out for it. What a joke man.