Preach's latest video

Community General Discussion
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I really appreciated how he started the video off and he made some really great points in total. In particular I agree the design changes around the AP grind (I.e. where it’s done, and how it benefits you vs legion) seem worse than last xpac.

Where he falls short for me though is in his criticism of decisions he believes were made for certain reasons. I think it’s fair to say that none of us truly know these reasons and when the devs communicate their intent we should, at a minimum, be willing to believe they’re telling the truth.

An example that stuck out to me was Preach’s notion that “rewards come first before gameplay” in the minds of the devs.

There have been instances of the devs stating they have to be careful of tieing rewards to content to avoid incentivizing it purely through reward rather than enjoyment. The PvP system changes in legion and the discussion surrounding them, as well as the changes made are a case-in-point.

In his video he displays a quote explaining Blizard’s thought process when making these choices. Preach refutes it with his points about AP grinding, suggesting they’ve tied the system to islands as incentive to do them . He then goes on to essentially argue against his points with his takes on Warmode and how the devs did not incentivize it enough through rewards…

Which is it?

While I agree that the AP grind isn’t as varied as it was in legion, I don’t agree that they’ve tied that system to islands as the means to incentivize them. We should be willing to believe that they are taking chances and attempting to innovate. Sometimes they get it wrong, saying that would be fair criticism. Pretending that they’re flat out lying about their intent isn’t fair at all and that cynical take on the issue really overshadows all the fair points he made.

To me it’s pretty apparent that islands were created and developed as a stand alone system, with a lot of attention to detail, a very robust reward system (seperate from AP) and a lot of unique assets made strictly for them. That said, people don’t seem to appreciate the secrets of island rewards. That’s something the devs have acknowledged. Secret finding isn’t for everyone and they’re changing how rewards are earned.

It’s only fair that moving forward I would expect to hear far less longing for days of old when “everything wasn’t already known” and “you couldn’t just google the answers”. It’s plain to see that mystery is no friend to the average wow player, at least when it comes to potential loot.

Warmode on the other hand, is a departure from the design style were used to in WoW. It’s largley a “sandbox” feature, a lot of work was done to implement it but a ton of assets and resources were not poured into it. That seems like a design choice to me though, not an overshight. Part of what makes player driven content engaging is the lack of confined goals/rewards. If they put the whole system on rails it might have more engagement, but would that be because of the reward incentive?

Ignoring the rewards issue, I personally agree Preach’s main points about Warmode though. More could be done with it, specifically with the bounty system and world quests. Again, it seems like the devs wanted to take a chance and implement something new. I am hopeful they will see feedback and continue to iterate. Bringing back the PvP WQs specifically as Warmode only options is a really great idea Preach touches on and I’d Lovett see it happen.

Finally to what I think is his best point. The open world, and what seems to be a lack of things to do in it. For me, the start of the expansion is when I would expect the open world content to be most meaningful. With only the initial installment of raids and dungeons at launch, world content should be at its most competitive. I know that Ion’s quote about progressing past WQs was specifically about the rewards not the WQ system or zones themselves. Because they are so closely tied together though, it does make me feel like the zones are disposable which is a shame.

I alao agree the WQ system feels much more shallow. This a system where rewards are really the only incentive. Doing the same quests over and over is not an inherently fun activity. I know the idealists would point to quests that have provided years of enjoyment and say “that’s what they should aim for”. I mean, I loved clobbering lazy peons with a blackjack for years with no reward. Those iconic quests are few and far between though. I think it’s fair to say they should incentivize WQs better, particularly at the start of the xpac. I love the improvements of WQs over daily’s, I chose which ones I want, which rewards I want, which order I do them. All those improvements are still here and I still like them. The rewards just aren’t really worth it for me.

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When WoW first released, 2004, before the explosion of social media, people had authentic and original posts of outrage and praise.

Fast forward 2018, every topic has click bait title and people parrot their favourite internet personality or news sources. The part of the brain that deals with language and communication has been liquefied and recast into a twitter sized format of x characters or less.

Incendiary tactics used by proto-trolls in the wild west of the internet days have now become common place. Hate bandwagons are increasingly present, such as “no more elves” or “BFA Worst,” along with a revival of archaic/niche words, particularly “shill,” which I think is more reflective of the current political climate in America.

This is all to say that your fun need not necessarily be congruent with an unofficially elected ‘voice of the community.’ Or perhaps it speaks to a different level of human psychology, in that things are only fun if they are perceived as such by others. In which case your participation in ‘fun’ has nothing to do with the game itself but is rather a means of self affirmation, in that your mode of being is consistent with the broader culture at large.

Of course this extends even further in describing the increasing ideological polarization happening in the west…but that is a conversation for a different topic on perhaps a different platform.

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83

That video is painfully accurate. Watching it is almost as rough as watching Wyatt Chang announcing Diablo Immortal…

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Every point I have to make is made in that video. Why say it myself when someone has already done a better job.

And seriously what is with the paranoia about giving streamers views.

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Yeah… you can’t really expect too much from anyone who thinks this game is in good shape currently.

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I don’t think it’s paranoia. I think it’s just stereotyping. And some of the older crowd don’t like this newfangled streaming stuff with ads and obnoxious kids, etc.

Just people feeling differently about things.

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They see it as a form of advertisement. It’s almost as if no one wants to see anyone do well in 2018. :scream:

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*edited cause im dum

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So, one of the largest collection of PC gaming nerds the world has ever known, aka WoW players, aren’t capable of having enough things in common for large numbers of them to be upset at the same time?

In turn, is it possible for them to be HAPPY about something at the same time? Does free will exist at all? Did Twitter design you or was it Google?

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I doubt it has to do with paranoia and more to do with not wanting to give views or “revenue” to streamers they don’t support. Youtube is all about views and subs so if I don’t like the streamer I don’t want to add to their counts at all. It is just basic talking with my wallet.

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[quote=“Brokgar-area-52, post:82, topic:36849, full:true”] Or perhaps it speaks to a different level of human psychology, in that things are only fun if they are perceived as such by others. In which case your participation in ‘fun’ has nothing to do with the game itself but is rather a means of self affirmation.
[/quote]

I wish I could like this more than once. I believe this phenomenon is called “Fortnite” IIRC.

I’d just like to say, I think this is the prefect platform for the discussion regarding the pervasive negativity of many streamers and paid personalities and the affect it has on the community.

I for one have many friends who currently express dislike of the game. When I question them they unknowingly give me verbatim critiques from YouTube.

It would be one thing if they had their own well thought through opinion, but when pressed they can never go past what someone else has said about the topic.

Furthermore, I find the evolution of some of the streams and channels fascinating. Changes in tones and stances, to outright rebranding and retcons happen to support a narrative that seems rather counterproductive.

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I was poking fun at my age group and being ironic at the same time. Did you entirely miss that? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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I’m 100% certain that Blizzard removed ML to slow down the world first races and to increase time played.

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Um, did I? Wow, I swear this has never happened to me before. I’ve never failed to get it u- I mean miss a joke. I’m so embarrassed…

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I did watch Preach’s missive on his thoughts. It was interesting and clearly shows some deep frustrations in him. It was well presented and for the most part lacked hyperbole of any kind.

I would be most interested to see any links to posts/videos/etc… about people advocating for or trying to destroy the guild system. I have not seen any such thing myself but would be most interested in doing so.

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I kinda doubt it… most full clearing guild don’t really stop raiding as it’s what they enjoy and selling runs is lucrative. Now this was a bit of a bum tier I’ve heard and there isn’t really anything to sell but its unlikely the change was made to retain full clearing mythic raiders.

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Sarcasm doesn’t become you, good sir.

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Thats not sarcasm, I legit missed that and feel like an a*@. Thats what i get for offering an apology. No good deed…

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Well… now I feel like a jerk! LOL I’m so used to people being so harsh on these forums that I completely missed it.

offers hugs, cookies and holiday mint fudge

:purple_heart:

Also, to be fair, my dry sense of humor often doesn’t translate well to the forums. I’ll work on that. And start using more smileys.

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My character of choice to illustrate jackas*ery is =p