It is a little bit but the point is that I can have ReM and EF on the whole party and have an Enveloping or two out as well and still do negligible healing if I’m not casting Vivify.
In 24’s the Dagger does 600-700k damage to everyone depending on their physical mitigation. So you need a way to significantly heal yourself and the DPS each time and 1 x Vivify with 2-3 Envelopings rolling simply isn’t enough 25+, nor is a strategy of spending 50k+ mana and 6+ GCD’s to do it. When do you move or heal the tank or contribute damage?
Once Harlen start’s living for 3-4 minutes and you’re facing a group-wide Dagger cast every 15-20 seconds the strategy of ramping for 6 consecutive Daggers becomes noticeably weaker than what other healers can do.
I know the common reply to this sort of post is “but the game isn’t balanced for 25+ keys”. But it would be more accurate to say that “Mistweaver isn’t balanced for 25+ keys” because other healers certainly are.
You should exaggerate less and learn more about the class. Here’s a PSA for all monk healers, you DO NOT need your healing CDs to heal even 21s so if you feel like you need them to meet a heal check, you need to learn more about how to pump with the base kit. Not being rude it’s just the truth.
My point was that a very minimalist approach works up through a 21 key without needing to use healing CDs — I don’t agree with you that a monk can’t heal a 24+ key.
Of course in a 24 1 vivify wouldn’t be enough. In a 24 you’ll increase your EvM ramp by at least 1 (depending on your defensives and whichever DPS are using comms to declare their defensives or health pot )
and then instead of using TFT for RSK you’d RSK before TFT and use it for Vivify during the entire tier bonus if necessary, taking Focused Thunder for mana efficiency if needed. This setup can be used on every cycle and gives you full tier amped vivify cleave spam during enveloping mist wrap on the party which is a lot of HPS. (if you are using Tea of serenity like me then you will also benefit from extra free vivify and better yet are the instant empowered EvMs whew those things chunk)
Throw in defensives, CDs, party utility, it’s definitely doable.
Healing the tank? Who does that? How do you not have EvM with nearly 100% uptime on the tank? Do people not do that?
It’s constantly proccing mending proliferation on other party members so I don’t have to waste time casting EvM on them and instead can just hit them with a Renewing Mist and Resplendent Mist chunks them to full and I can keep dpsing instead of casting EvM and Vivify on them.
Edit: realized my talents different online than my normal build for M+ So here’s a link
Everything and anything works at low key levels. Even using nothing but Soothing and Unison would probably be a viable strategy in the right group. But I think pretending MW doesn’t have any issues isn’t helpful or true. You’re talking about toolkit issues and weaknesses as if they’re player skill issues.
I said MW is noticeably weaker than other healers. I didn’t say they couldn’t heal it. Perhaps I didn’t make my point very well. My overall conclusion after playing Monk, Disc, Hpal and Preservation from 17-25 keys is that MW just spends more mana and more GCD’s and requires more setup than other healers and leans more heavily on hard casted heals than the best healers.
I could ramp into every set of Whirling Daggers and alternate between SG and TFT with multiple Vivify casts with full ReM’s and 3 to 4 Envelopings rolling and I could probably heal just fine into higher keys. I don’t even have an issue with that per se. I have an issue with other healers being able to heal through the same mechanic with less than half the mana spent and half the GCD’s used with less hard casting limitations and and no real ramp or setup required.
I think any spec that must ramp and prepare for an event should have a better payoff than another spec that doesn’t.
The Holy Paladin that hits Holy Shock on CD on the tank outheals the Mistweaver keeping Enveloping Mist up on the tank 100% of the time. One of those specs heals two other players at the same time and gets procs which buff their other abilities and resources they can use too. The other spec must hard cast their heal, spend triple the GCD’s to keep it up 100% of the time and spends twice the mana to do less healing.
I know there is more nuance to that comparison and I know not every spec can or should be the same in all regards but the gap at the moment is too large in these sorts of examples. In the key that you’re pressing Enveloping Mist on the tank every 12-14 seconds and are pressing RSK on CD to extend it and fish for resets with BoK to maintain uptime; I’m pressing HS on CD and doing triple your damage as a Holy Paladin spending 90% of my GCD’s on damage and still outhealing you on the tank.
This is a balance issue, not a player skill issue.
( It’s also a paly being way over buffed since the rework, but the thing is it feels good to be overpowered/strong, so you see lots of people running paly now. because it’s a less miserable experience than mistweaver healing who can pump but need to work harder to do so and still lack certain tools )
Unfortunately they are right. Look at the keys run my mistweavers. You only have about 20 ( see edit ) MW pushing slightly higher than 24. ( this is to be expected tbh given the low # of players even running keys higher than 25 and the small number of monk players even playing MW )
Im sOoOoOo glad the mana tea “rework” will fix this balancing issue ( /sarcasm font )
Edit, I filtered wrong, there are about 20 ish people running higher than 24’s for MW. My bad
Can you maybe provide some examples of what monk needs?
Without mastery it definitely is hard to heal in M+ I’ll agree with that.
I’ll agree that our dps sucks and even our healing through dps sucks (okay for maintenance healing but definitely can’t keep up with burst healing windows as fist weaver which is kind of lame.)
Our celestial absorb sucks too.
Our healing while moving really sucks. I’d like this to be fixed the most.
Need some sort of niche to fill (I vote absorbs at the right time because it’s underused niche compared to hero/brez)
Mana cost definitely overtuned.
I agree there are many flaws, but also at the same time tired of people complaining about mist when it’s not quite as bad as people think
Worth noting too that the #3/#5 best MW healers arent running fey line builds.
So you can literally get to 25+ to 27’s without feylines as MW if anyone was wondering. Which doesnt look to be that far behind a feyline build. ( at that point you are probably looking at dps/better game play anyways instead of the little bit of more healing that Fey Line might be able to bring )
Food for thought.
So mistweaver does need some buffage but not a whole lot I guess. I hope more things come up on the PTR for us soon.
Agree here! In legion we had mast/haste and vers and that is my go to still.
If they’d buff this we would have a decent sized shield mechanic for 5 mans for a little work on their end. Back in S1 I had even tried to use it as a aoe defensive for big hits but it still kinda fell short and people needed to use their defensives. ( Birb boss in Algeth’s pushing screeshes to 4-5 ) Just beef it maybe 25-40% or swap it to a straight up DR ( 15-20% seems fair ). Im glad vers beefs those shields a bit and Im glad they added that but it can be so much more imo, and also fill in an area we are missing. ( that group DR type thing or shield )
The only time I didnt feel this way was when I ran tea of serenity and Thundering Focus. Having 3-4 instant env mists is HUGE for movement situations. I had swapped to the accommodate the call of dominance trinket and abuse the haste from secret infusion and invoker’s delight but it feels…meh. I miss my many teas and will probably swap back to ToS at some point soon.
This. While there are buffs we could get to beef us a bit, and Im not too happy about the mana tea change myself- we do have it in us to do 25+s as MW and up to 27 it seems. It’s just the MW playerbase is extremely low, even more so since paly reworks.
It’s an awful ability that no monk wants on any spec
It sucks up 4 talent points to get awakened Faeline.
One improvement that should be made is to let us have Tear of Morning AND Rising Mist. Tear of Morning was ONLY viable in legion with Rising Mist. If you can’t extend EvM there’s just no value in Tear of Morning.
ATOTM needs to be decoupled from the stupidness beneath Faeline. ancient concordance should not be influencing the tuning value of ATOTM so that people can have non faeline ATOTM builds. It makes ATOTM only good in cleave and not ST. Additionally, we need an on use that boosts our damage and allows fistweaver to heal through high damage windows using damage only
I hate it aha. AT felt better in raids/larger groups but it just felt bad in m+ and Fey Line made it miserable to be stuck to that confined area, drained all the fun of being a MW for me, adding more complexity to things for very similar results was…meh. ( Though I wouldnt count placing FL and hitting SCK over and over on trash really complex ) The funny part was people complaining about not being able to be in the fey line and not having the HPS to pump bosses/ST ( when CF took care of that easily ), especially more so funny now that CF ( non feyline builds ) appear to be just as viable.
I mean if FL people cant push much higher than CF players it doesn’t matter much in the end and maybe the devs are getting something right by balancing FL/CF styles close enough together like this. It looks like we need some kind of slight buffage that doesnt favor/affect one build more than the other build too much. ( such as the yu lon/chi ji shield boost you mentioned )
Also worth noting at this point an extremely miniscule % of players even play past 20’s, let alone 25’s. The fact we dont see many MW at that range isnt entirely an issue imo. It’s paly having all the things issue, them being overtuned compared to everyone else, MW community perception and toxicity of some monk players, augvoker throwing balancing all over the place, misleading or old/outdated guides stating you MUST play a less fun build ( ie fey line ) which isnt true, and the higher skill cap all contribute to making MW less favored.
I made some predictions prior to 10.0.7 where I said I’d like to see Resto Shaman be given a permanent DR on Earth Shield, perhaps 8%. I also suggested making the PvP Chain Heal talent a part of the spec tree to give Resto Shamans more responsive group healing and more options for spread healing with the increased jump range.
I made other (terrible) suggestions that didn’t get added in 10.0.7 but I got lucky with guessing those two at least.
I’m working on a similar thing for 10.1.7 for the Disc talent update that hasn’t been detailed yet and hopefully more Mistweaver updates along with Mana Tea.
Unfortunately at the moment what I have is mostly just my issues with the spec with precious few ideas for potential improvements.
Problems:
Fistweaving can’t be entirely at the mercy of being in melee all the time. Every stomp, ragestorm, ground AoE, fixate, etc, stops my healing. Either Fistweaving throughput needs to be potent enough to warrant playing around interruptions or if it stays weak as it currently is, it needs to be dependable at all times.
Spot healing can’t be entirely at the mercy of Vivify. Mastery is supposed to be another option here but with so much throughput coming from non-Mastery sources and it contributing nothing to damage, it feels like a bad stat to stack. It also feels like stacking mastery is trading one problem away for another one, like getting more spot healing but losing AoE healing.
Mobility healing can’t be entirely based around Vivify procs or CD’s.
Group healing can’t be so overwhelmingly reliant on Shielun’s Gift.
Damage in keys can’t be entirely reliant on 200 SCK globals.
Solutions:
Fistweaving toolkit expanded to incorporate ranged abilities in a limited fashion or MW be given the Hpal treatment where the range of our melee abilities get increased to facilitate the use of those abilities while stomps and fixates and ragestorms etc occur.
Mobility healing should be improved by making Vivify instant cast like I mentioned in the OP.
We have damage buttons like Chi Wave, Chi Burst, White Tiger and Zen Pulse but they’re all balanced so poorly they’re almost never worth pressing or only barely better than just pressing SCK for the 100th time. Those abilities should be impactful and worth pressing. Especially the ones that don’t heal through AT. Chi Burst should be a huge burst of damage, for example. White Tiger should slap.
The Monk class tree Capstone talents are the worst Capstone talents in the whole game, imo. They need to be either completely redesigned or buffed significantly. JSS needs to do meaningful healing and ideally it should auto heal like it did in the past. White Tiger needs to absolutely send damage like it did in the beta or have some other benefit and Ox Statue needs to hold aggro and not die or be some sort of group survival tool.
My conclusions thus far for Mistweaver have been that the spec feels absolutely fantastic when healing profiles fall within the range of my toolkit. When I can cover mobile healing with a Vivify proc and group healing with a huge SG and tank healing with an Enveloping Mist or blast Fistweaver healing with 100% uptime and my throughput is enough, Mistweaver is amazing. When healing requirements surpass my profile and toolkit however, the spec feels half-baked and missing elements.
It probably doesn’t help that mastery has to be balanced with Essence Font in mind since it is theoretically possible to have the doubling buff up at any point, or Enveloping Mist’s bonus healing as well.
Both of these players were in a raid build when they logged out and I know they do not do keys in that build. Be careful when checking rio for talents.
EDIT: went back to look since most keys are logged now thanks to Aug. These are the highest keys for non-faeline builds I could find for each dungeon. Since not every group logs or they may not log because they don’t have an Aug, it could lead to a few dungeons being missed here or there but you can see the pattern.
for that level of healing we have to go cast weaving (at least I’ve found it more successfull for heavy incoming damage with pretty high uptime) and rotate CDs till we just fall behind - but then you massively sacrifice on damage not just for that specific encounter, but for the whole dungeon.
^ This. You eventually just start to tune them out and let them feel special in their echo chamber tbh. They just say the same things over and over. Their name is fitting.
Mistake/Misleading raiderio information or not. Main point that they also seemed to “miss” was that MW can do over 24’s, and only an extremely low % of players are doing over 20-24’s anyways so in the grand scope of things it doesnt even matter - as both are viable up to and past a level most people dont care about.
Like I said though: I hope more than a mana tea mini game is coming our way in s3. Blizz needs to find a way to get more people playing MW ( esp in the 20-25 range ) because people like the above just dont help give us a good rep.
In PuG, Fistweaving build cannot heal multiple mistakes (fail to do mechanic) in M+ but Mistweaving (without AT, faeline, Chi-ji) build can heal thru it. Fistweaving is very hard to do in PuG as it is very hard to do mechanic correctly esp interrupt without audio communication. However, mistweaving can heal thru the damage when some mistakes happenning in PuG. My current monk only do M+ in PuG, I never create my own group, only join other group. I use fistweaving build only when the group are formed by guild where they can interrupt correctly. Fistweaving build sacrifice a lot on single target healing but MWing build can heal thru all type of damage but sacrifice a lot of dps.
Yes. I had to make a post explaining the context of my words so nobody miss understands the position I take on a topic.
I’m sorry that attempting to make sure people don’t make assumptions about me is ever so wrong. I’ll refrane from ever typing on the forums again