None of these people actually want it to be challenging, they just want to complain.
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I swear the wow forums reading comprehension is low. It isnât all about difficulty it is about the way the raids are designed. Im assuming you never experienced how insane the nerfs were. But when you can destroy every boss without mechanics then suddenly a guild that had to put in almost 0 effort gets to things like council HC it just feels awful. The nice thing about pre nerf wasnât just the difficulty. It was the overall pacing of the raids. It started out fairly straight forward and picked up in difficulty as you learned it, then when you switched to heroic you had the fundamentals for the mechanics down, but it hit harder more often and with some much more difficult twists.
The post nerf versions you can ignore almost every single mechanic on normal and still come out on top. Then you go to hc and bosses without the mechanical difficulty go down easily, but you get completely stuck on all the others. And left in a weird place of constantly switching difficulties after every boss. It really really messes with the raid in a way i dont think people here understand (or want to understand).
And to top it off, by the time a lot of people realize this problem, you cant really go back to normal to practice. Using maloriak as an example. The normal version with mostly 359 gear (which youll probably have by the time you attempt maloriak hc). You will get him to phase change hp in less than 1 cycle. So youre just standing there waiting for it to go through the motions. You cant practice the mechanics with adds and rotation because youll push it to next phase. So your only option becomes beating your head against the fight in hc. Or giving up and just clearing normal repeatedly.
The post nerf design scheme was essentially put in place to make anyone with passable t12 gear able to blast through all but the hardest of fights with ease for transmog and use as an alt catchup mechanic. Add on 4.3.4 talents and it just breaks the raids for a new raid tier release.
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Same as other dude. I imagine you never did pre/post nerf raids. On most boss fights you can legitimately ignore most mechanics on normal and get away with it. For full explanation read my response to him above this.
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Player power progression is a big part of the game, forcing players to nerf themselves to retain a semblance of challenge from the raids is just lame and unfun.
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I did do pre nerf and post nerf in the original cata. Iâve also since progged and achieved every CE since Argus with some of my most recent CEs as hall of fames. I quit Mythic raiding after hall of fame raszageth and decided to hang out with my friends in classic around the end of TOGC into ICC. We killed 25m 0% HLK as a bunch of raid logging casuals.
My post earlier was in reference to heroic. Doesnât matter if a heroic skilled group can go into a normal boss and just blast it/turn it into a patchwerk fight. Lesser skilled groups (vast majority) would not be able to do the same because their throughput would not be anywhere near as high (both dps/hps) to entirely ignore the mechanics in the first place.
Regardless of post nerf/pre nerf difficulty, raid pacing, throughput (both in game and brain), the raids still would have been cleared much faster than they originally were. Players have access to infinitely more information compared to what we did 14 years ago. Having weak auras for example would completely trivialize mechanics like wrack - in fact, upon checking there literally are weak auras already lol.
I understand what youâre trying to get at but it does not apply here. Itâs not like only normal was nerfed and heroic wasnât; creating a huge spike in required throughput and skill. The scale in difficulty remains THE SAME between norm/heroic as it was 14 years ago however both difficulties as a WHOLE are easier due to post nerf.
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The problem OP is that everyone wants to do the hardest content available so they can âproveâ to people they are good at the game. Nobody wants to settle on normal difficulty, especially when it offers inferior rewards, because people want the best rewards possible.
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Itâs on a faster pace timeline for whatever reasonâŚ
Hence if most guilds canât complete an heroic raids; cuz if youâre really honest with yourself there is a insanely low IQ playerbase,
Then itâs bad for the game
Length was a complaint about Cata but odd way to over correct for that.
I remember the issue being more the over the top difficulty of the heroic dungeons, not the normal or heroic raids.
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Hate to tell you but thereâs plenty who will have fun throughout without even worrying about anything past heroics and normal raids. Really the only people giving 150% on 12+ year old expansion will be the guild mates that play with them anyway.
Now, it was refreshing the first time you had to CC your way through an instance even on normal but if youâve been there and done that youâll not its not the end of the world, as always it leads to content on farm, pissing through everything like wrath until RNG gives you another 20 gear score to make you feel like youâve actually achieved something IRL and the rest of planet should be impressed. Then you age, and get over yourself.
normal mode should be easy, we have people with a 30% buff still unable to clear ICC normal.
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Oh, itâs the elitist speaking. âMy accomplishments are not worth anything if anybody can do itâ? Or do I not understand what you say?
At least I would like everybody who wants to, to clear all dungeons and raids in Cata - and have fun doung it. Not only the 10 % most dedicated players and guilds.
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Youâve got it. Original WoW dev Kevin Jordan likes to say, âThey donât want it to be too difficult for themselves; they just want it too difficult for everyone else.â
That aside, even with the nerf most raids that log will probably not clear Nefarian, Choâgall and Al-Akir on normal. T11 is that challenging.
Then thereâs still place for people to gloat 
And with the faster pace youâre probably right.
Normal mode t11 isnt that hard post nerf. Nef, cho and alakir on normal, especially post nerf, will be dead much faster than lichking normal. We almost cleared magmaw on testing with most people in the run not knowing the fight on 10man heroic. If magmaw 10man heroic is a potential clear that fast, then the rest of the fights are a joke â considering magmaw historically was one of the hardest for 10.
Cata wasnât very easy post nerf, most guilds and especially pugs will struggle and it will be pretty fun. Sadly we are running off some private server build and not the OG stuff so Iâm sure itâs going to be a buggy mess for a while. They still havenât even fixed professions on boosted characters smhâŚ
That is s-a-d
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SOD is leaking into Cata.
It looks like the population in SOD is really dying down, so Iâm willing to bet that Blizz is trying to cater to the average 1-3 APM dad gamer.
On the other hand, it took my guild roughly 100 HLK pulls to down him, and it felt GREAT getting that first kill.
Blizz isnât even giving us the pre-nerf heroics on launch, which is a shame. That was some of the most fun Iâve ever had in dungeons, back in OG launch.
Look at all the GDKP complaints popping up recently.
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However they are so nerfed that getting a piece of gear just makes it easier, not allows you to kill it. People are clearing heroic at 347 ilvl, some of those nerfs actually completely removed mechanics for bosses like council with split dpsing them.
Weak auras will do a lot but not as much as just straight nerfing encounters by 30%. Just think Heroic lk 0% and Heroic lk 30% + flying people nerfs, also now defile doesnt spread and the boss does 50% less damage on melee swings. You basically make 30% heroic lk normal lk at that point.
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How much does it bother you that MMO PvP is a complete afterthought in 2024?
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I agree. There is a wide range of skills and desire in the player base. There are still a lot of guilds out there who have multiple heroic mode ICC bosses they havenât downed yet, even with the 30% buff and all the gear theyâve acquired.
These forums seem to be an echo chamber, 'cause it seems like we only hear from the top 75% parsers or people pretending to be them. I never hear someone starting their post with âIâm a gray/green parser and these are the bosses that are too toughâ, but thereâs a lot of those folks who exist. Thereâs too much shame directed their way by the top end raiders who are good enough for that to be easy to them. Would be like a Strongman competitor shaming everyone at the gym who finds deadlifting 200+ pounds difficult. Is it easy for you? Yes. Can lots of people do it, Sure. Can everyone do it? No.
So I donât really have an opinion on the hard/heroic mode Cata raids, but Iâm a big proponent of normal modes being nerfed. That was a guild killer in Cata the first time around with many casual guilds who could kill the Lich King a few weeks before, now being stuck on the 3rd boss of the first raid on normal mode. I watched my guild die, and everyone in it just stopped logging in, I watched it happen to other guilds, (then watched the same mistake repeat in MoP).
Naxx(80) may have been too easy, but IMO, itâs better to err in that direction for the first raid, than too hard.
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