Adding resources limits to AV is precisely what created the mess that is AV today not 1.12.
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Actually, for non-PVPers in Classic, this was the valid mentality, and the real PVPers hoped they’d hurry up and get Exalted and get out.
However, I wouldn’t use it as a definitive argument for whichever version is appropriate, since the AV version should be selected for its best PVP experience.
You know, it certainly seemed that way to me too. But are we sure about this?
I ask because… literally every patch from its release Blizzard nerfed the hell out of AV constantly, all the way into mid TBC and beyond. Are we actually sure that they intended it to be a large scale pvp/pve raid like experience? Because if so, they certainly undermined themselves pretty consistently man.
With the way they took a hatchet to AVs map and entire experience, Im not sure they intended it to be all that epic. They seemed so obsessed with making the game end faster, and removing NPC’s/PvE.
Look boss, I’m tossing ideas out, if you want to play the magical “No” ferry then I guess that’s your prerogative, but throw me a bone here, I’m honestly trying to come up with some sort of compromise that people can agree on. Players that I know and talk to don’t want 1.12 because of the possible zerg fest rapid rep rewards, and players on here are stating they dont want Long lasting AV with OP NPCs…
at this point throwing ideas out and making compromises is about the best way to come up with a consensus, Blizz is most defninity watching this and every other large thread out there. So if we can jog some Ideas on here, they might just even take a look and realize that players want something difference and are working together to make a game fun for all
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I’m all in favor blizzard simply offering both versions of AV, 1.12 the version that was most successful and the blizzard favors and 1.5 for the people who want that. That gives everyone what they want.
Back in the early early days of Vanilla before AV came out, people where salivating at the chance to play AV, you would see people posting for weeks just waiting to play, and when the day came, everyone was hooked. BUT it did have its drawbacks, just like any new content that was released, some mobs where OP there’s no denying that. and with WoW being so new, people did not know how to play BG’s, it was a brand new experience to everyone, so in order to keep people wanting to play they started nerfing it, little bits at a time, listening to what people complained about.
But some of the changes they made for the worst, taking out NPCs rather then moving them, or small nerfs to them was not the way to go, people complained because they didnt know what to do or how to play. Someone linked the original plan for AV - exactly what blizz wanted to do with it, and I think it was ahead of its time. and the fact that you needed to be 51+ to join, in its early days there wasn’t a lot of people that level, or even geared for it.
I dont think they would go with 2 AV’s just because of the smaller player base that classic will have, if 1.12 does turnout to be a zerg run then what would stop people from doing it just to get the rep and rewards. Anyone play 1.5 would be foolish to not run 1.12 to get rep and rewards. I imagine that players would try 1.5 and actually like it, but with AV rewards they could join it and it would be completely unbalanced for the players that solely play 1.5, akin to when LFR and regular raids came out in cata.
Do you normally post on a toon that has more that 1 minute of forum time, 4 posts viewed and 1 post made?
I’m glad you brought up reinforcements. I’ve seen a few people try to use reinforcements as a cause of zerging, which of course is absurd. How can a mechanic that only comes into play if you don’t zerg have an impact if you do zerg? The answer is…it doesn’t.
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CRBG’s should mitigate any population issues with offering both versions. But if the argument is that if both are offered 1.5 would be so unpopular comparatively it still wouldn’t have enough players that’s not a very compelling argument for 1.5 in general.
No, it didn’t. It helped to create PVP opportunities. And also no: it was changed because certain players wanted quicker rewards.
Except for Blizzard who’s trying to do Classic with as little development as possible.
1.5 AV lasted a month. A single patch.
Never had an AV in 1.12 last less than 3-4 hours.
If no one from the Alliance is defending as you suggest, the bridge isn’t an issue.
In my battle group we always had people defending.
The same thing that happens when all those people who only want the fastest grind possible to never step foot in AV again reach exalted in any version of AV. They stop doing AV, and then only the people who want to do AV for AV will be in AV.
It is. 10 Alliance at the SPGY or failing to hold that on the SPAS side of the bridge can effectively hole the entire horde team.
Never once played an AV all the way into Legion where we didn’t kill Galv and cap all the towers.
Never had a “zerg” AV where no one defended until after reinforcements were introduced.
False from my experience. 3-4 hours is plenty of time for someone do the quests. I actually vividly remember joining an AV the Alliance was losing during 1.12 because the horde had summoned their ice elemental guy.
Being the crazy person I am sometimes, I attacked it. Got it down to 93% hp on my own. I then told my team to just attack it. We killed it. Several hours later, we’re knocking on the FWRH. Good times.
Also false from my experience. Holding the bridge as Alliance is pretty easy with just 10 people. For the horde, putting some warlocks and mages on the towers coming into the FWRH area makes for some good defense as well.
There is nothing in 1.5 that actually forces either side to pvp with each other. Both teams could completely ignore the other and as a 40 man team, work their way through every NPC they had to on the way to the general. And before anyone says “Well that never happened in 1.5”, Yes, but no one ever tried it either.
1.5 isn’t going to change player base mentality. If you can’t convince people to not try to rush, you’re going to eventually have teams doing exactly as I just described. Working as a team to kill every NPC and tower they have to on there way to the general because it’s just faster than doing anything else. And trust me, someone will work out the most efficient way to do it.
No, if you want to have fun AVs that aren’t just glorified raids, you need to change the player mentality. You need to convince people to defend.
what is fun is subjective.
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Easy to say for someone with time travelling skills. Ones lacking don’t have that luxury.
Bobby K might be influencing the opposition to “fun”.
There’s two reasons for that.
- Player mentality was a little different. Most people hadn’t been trained to look for the path of least resistance yet. But in Classic they will.
- Players simply didn’t know you could zerg it.
I don’t think you truly understand the nature of 1.12 AV. You can literally run straight to the enemy boss, ignore the towers and kill the boss without even fighting the generals/warmasters. How do you stop this? Picture a Vann/Drek buffed 30% with even more hp on top of that, packs of powerful guard NPCs you have to fight your way through. Aka 1.5-1.7 AV. Because if you go with 1.12 AV you get this:
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You keep linking that video of the premade team rushing past everything and killing Van. It’s a premade, come on. Something that actually doing is borderline impossible because you can’t queue full raids into AV. 99.9999% of all AV’s are not going to be premade teams. Just stop.
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This is what the original design envisioned:
https://web.archive.org/web/20041223182307/http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/battlegrounds.html
One of the core tenets of the Warcraft universe is the raging conflict between the Horde and the Alliance. Old hatreds die hard, as they say, and the hate shared between these two ancient foes is deep and primal. That’s why the player-versus-player gameplay has always been a staple of the design for World of Warcraft; the war between the Horde and the Alliance simply isn’t over. It might not look this way now, because our full player-versus-player system isn’t in the game yet, but the introduction of Battlegrounds, and the full PvP reward system, will change that perception. We’ve been testing Battlegrounds and our reward system for weeks internally now, and we’re ready to bring you a full-blown, multi-part preview of what we have in store for you in the months ahead.
Last week, we engaged in a massive internal test of the new Battleground system, as dozens of internal testers amassed for war in the snows of Alterac Valley. Arrayed in the southern valley was the Frostwolf tribe, a proud group of orcs fiercely loyal to Warchief Thrall’s standard, while at the north valley stood the doughty dwarves of the Stormpike clan, hearty soldiers dedicated to the preservation of the Alliance. In a session that lasted hours, we were able to test the latest iteration of our PvP system: High-level groups marshaled at their respective bases and then sallied forth to clash in the center of the map, trying to break into the other side’s forward camp, fighting alongside elite NPC defenders. Lower-level players who wanted to contribute in other ways to the battle could also do so by undertaking PvP-related quests, such as capturing wolves or rams to provide mounts for cavalry charges, claiming a nearby mine and ferrying resources back to the main base to upgrade allied troops, or capturing enemy graveyards to lengthen the run back to the frontlines for revived adversaries.
Just when the pitched battle seemed to be stalemated, Alliance griffons appeared over the battlefield and began to lay waste to Horde players below, bringing another set of challenges to the battlefront. To match firepower with even greater firepower, thanks to the efforts of questing Horde players, a fearsome shaman could be heard in the distance calling forth a mighty elemental to begin a rampage of the Stormpike camp. As the battle reached its climactic conclusion, we steeled ourselves for the inevitable destruction that would come as griffon fury was overrun by elemental rage.
We tried very hard to create a battle experience that felt like Warcraft; we want you to feel like you are part of a larger conflict, with the potential for lots of strategy and tactics beyond a simple mob of players crashing into each other. Our hope is that we’ve succeeded, and once we further fine-tune our Battlegrounds, you players will be able to experience the first of many battlefields where the Alliance and Horde will test their resolve against one another.
In the meantime, to whet your appetite while you wait, and to show you some of what we have in store for Battlegrounds, we’d like to share a little more details on Alterac Valley itself. And in the weeks ahead, we’ll provide a glimpse at the very latest iteration of our PvP honor system.
Alterac Valley itself is nestled high within the Alterac Mountains in Lordaeron. To get there, players will need to run through a tunnel in the mountains. Each side will have its own tunnel entrance into the valley. The entrance into the zone is a swirling red portal, so you’ll know you’re about to enter a Battleground when you see this striking sight.
Great cliffs surround the exterior of Alterac Valley, and hills and spotty trees dot the snow-covered landscape. In the south lies the Frostwolf base, while in the north is the Stormpike base. Each base is a functioning town, with vendors, smiths, guards, and quest givers. And like any other zone, there are hostile monsters wandering the wilderness. The difference, though, is that everything here is geared towards player-versus-player combat.
The middle of the map is basically a hotbed of conflict. Off to one side is a freezing cave where ruthless ice trolls reside. Within this lair, we’re placing some elite loot: gear that players will be dying to acquire. However, with such incredible loot comes commensurate danger, not only from the residents within, but also from opposing players who might also come searching for treasure. One of several key graveyards is also situated near the middle (more on graveyards later). On opposing sides of this middle are the forward base camps for the two sides, with the Stormpike camp in the north and the Frostwolf camp in the south. Each is led by a powerful captain: the first line of defense when trying to break through to the other side’s base.
Beyond this forward base camp are patrols of NPC guards, with some of them, such as the captain and several important lieutenants, also being elite opponents. Nestled into the mountains in each side’s territory is also a mine. These mines are fiercely held ground owned by troggs and kobolds. However, inside are crates of supplies that either side would do well to acquire, for they can be used to upgrade NPC soldiers with better armor and weapons, thereby making them harder to kill and more lethal in battle.
At the opposite edges of the zone, deep in the heart of each side’s territory, is a village, and just beyond that, its main fortress. You’ll not only find each side’s graveyard here, but also various support NPCs, including vendors, smiths, quest givers, and the ultimate commander of each side.
When the Battlegrounds debut, you will be able to collect quest loot and trophies off of players you kill. For example, if you are a Horde player and kill an enemy PC, you will be able to take from them their blood. Not only will this be a trophy of your victory, but in the Battlegrounds, amassing the blood of your enemies will have an awesome and powerful effect. If you and the other players on your team bring enough enemy blood, and by that we mean hundreds, to your side’s head shaman, he will begin a ritual to summon an immense elemental, which will then march methodically into the enemy camp to destroy it. Likewise, for the Alliance side, bringing enough trophies to your head spellcaster will call an equally powerful being to your side’s aid.
In addition to looting blood off of a corpse to complete this grand summoning quest, when you kill a player, you will also loot an insignia off their body. The insignia looks very much like the PvP flag next to your character portrait when you are flagged for PvP. When you grab the insignia, you also destroy the corpse of your fallen foe, which means they can’t resurrect where they died.
The slain player will then get a dialog box asking them whether they want to return to a nearby graveyard to be resurrected and avenge the defilement of their corpse. Once you release and go to a nearby graveyard, you will find that there is a living friendly NPC at the graveyard, not a spirit healer. Coming back from the dead is a little different in a Battleground. You cannot resurrect yourself at will. Instead, you have to wait for this special NPC to raise you, which he does with an area resurrection effect that he casts every minute or so (you will see a countdown timer on your screen telling you how long before you can come back). When the area effect resurrection goes off, all friendly dead players within the graveyard are brought back to life, with half health and mana, and no resurrection sickness or durability damage. At this point, you are free to return to battle. But how far you have to run to return to the frontlines depends on which graveyard you were raised at.
Alterac Valley will have several graveyards distributed within it. There will be at least one, if not two, near each side’s base and another in the mountains near the center of the map. Graveyards are basically neutral territory that can be captured by either side, which introduces some interesting strategies to the game. Each side obviously will want to control the graveyard closest to the center of the map, so that dead troops can rush back to battle even quicker. However, an even greater advantage is gained by taking the graveyard closest to the enemy’s base. That makes it even easier for players on your team to storm the enemy base, as you basically eliminate the long run across the map.
The mechanism for controlling a graveyard is through the banner that lies inside each one. A graveyard already under your side’s control will have your faction’s banner and several friendly NPC defenders there. The banner tells you who owns the graveyard. To claim a graveyard for your side, you have to tear down the current banner and erect your own, which is basically achieved by interacting with the existing banner. It’s easier said than done, though, because a claimed graveyard will have opposing, elite NPC defenders. However, once you succeed, your allied NPC troops will begin to spawn in around the graveyard and take control of it. More importantly, enemy players will no longer be able to revive there.
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How can you make that argument? I mean…you can’t be serious, right? I personally have been part of probably 200-300 pug victories of AV. Almost every single AV in the years I did it (mostly TBC and Wrath) was a zerg. Everyone in this forum has done the same. Why act like pugging a zerg in AV is difficult? We have literally historical proof that is not true. In the slightest. What you are saying has 100% already been proven false.
Now let’s also factor in that all these pug zergs to which I’m referring to happened AFTER the aggro of the Boss and the generals/warmasters were linked. In other words, it was HARDER to zerg AV from that point on. In 1.12 it’s much, much easier.
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- Classic WoW is known for MUCH longer grinds, in nearly every aspect. It’s a game that rewards time commitments and delayed gratification. I don’t see why sacrificing gameplay purely to improve the rate at which we receive rewards is in the spirit of Classic.
- If you want efficient honor grinds, play AB and WSG. If all you care about is the rewards, then that’s a step towards the retail mentality we’re trying to get away from.
- The time per game is actually irrelevant in my opinion. I’d rather play a fully realized AV match that takes 12 hours, than a 10 minute match that’s a zerg. By the way, you don’t have to play the full 12 hours, and most matches didn’t last that long, even in 1.5.
- AV wasn’t empty back in the early patches on my server. If it’s fun, people will play it. If zerging becomes the norm, then honor grinding and rep will be the Only aspects of AV that people will play it for.
I get that 1.5 AV was a nostalgic part of Vanilla. It will NOT make a memorable part of Classic.
All I know is, once zerging became the norm, I lost all interest in AV.
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