I have a theory about this that I would need someone who’s seen the raid boss loot tables to confirm, but my tin foil hat theory is that on top of the reasons Blizzard has given, one of the reasons they had for going back to group loot was that it made it easier and faster to create loot tables for the bosses, with personal loot you would need every boss to have a few items that would be in the personal loot table of every spec. With group loot you don’t need that requirement, especially with all of the tier tokens, BOEs and BOP crafting materials they sprinkled in. Further I think this is why there is no personal loot in LFR and why they didn’t give people the option to choose between personal or group loot.
Evidence for this theory would be shown in the loot tables of the raid bosses themselves, I imagine you would see boss tables that are slimmed down overall compared to SL. My gut is telling me that a drastic change like this was to save time to meet deadline, otherwise they would have felt this out with a survey a while ago (did I miss that survey?).
Exactly!!! The players arguing pro Group Loot are the ones who A) have never experienced group loot in the past or B) the ones that abused group loot and to gear their character up quicker then everyone else.
Fact: People who win a roll will be pestered by whisphers from “losers” just as much as with personal loot. Heck, even more so because now there’s no trade limitation => Not better than personal loot
Fact: Unlike with personal loot, where you could simply leave the loot in the boss and get it mailed later, there’s no way of winning a roll without everyone knowing → Pestering is overall easier => Not better than personal loot
Expectation: The number of players rolling “Need” simply because they can (even if it’s just for vendor gold) is likely to exceed the number of players that actually pass because “for gold”, “for enchanting mats”, “for transmog” are just as valid reasons to keep stuff as they always were.
Fact: Person A deliberately passing will not prevent person B from being pestered by person C who wins the roll => Not really an improvement over personal loot either.
Fact: The only “benefit” will now be that organized groups will be able to trade all loot because the trade limitations of personal loot do no longer apply but then again personal loot and trading - when possible - weren’t that much of an issue to begin with.
=> The conflicts surrounding loot will firmly remain a “PuG” / “LfR” issue and with the removal of trade restrictions group loot will be just as annoying to the broader masses if not more than personal loot was.
Debatable, too early to tell right now. There’s a big difference between looting a boss/mob and getting an item while others don’t compared to rolling on the items against those players and winning the roll.
Yeah the fact that people were not looting bosses is a bad thing.
In the old need before greed system you’d be right. Not so with the Dragonflight implementation as there are additional rules in place to prevent that sort of behaviour and that can be adjusted on the fly as the expansion moves forward.
Nope, not debatable. Its a FACT. Cant remember how many times I have been whispered by someone for something I actually wanted and needed. The only saving grace to get them off my back was telling them it was an item level upgrade and cant trade.
Nothing they have said states that a player can not roll need on every equipable item they want. Except unless the item is Unique.
For example, if I have a 304 cloak with BiS stats on it, then a 304 cloak that completes my transmog drops. I can roll need. Its a petty move, but its allowed even if the rest of the raid team has level 291 cloaks… The same WILL happen in LFR. Because lets face it, some LFR armor sets have some nice color shades. Players got to look good!
Again, any puggable content should be personal loot. But there should be an option for full guild raid runs. Honestly, I am going to talk to our guild about going to EPGP system if it can be integrated into rolls. That way no one player NEEDs all the loot.
Which element of human behaviour in general or player behaviour in WoW in particular makes you think that “losers” will pester “winners” less often with group loot than they did with personal loot?
There’s no real difference as far as outcome is concerned: X persons have a loot roll. 1 person wins. Y persons that lost ask the winner to hand the loot over.
“Bad” in what manner exactly? The original non-looters will now roll, then have to deal with requests and then keep their rightfully won item. Unlike before they’ll now have to deal with people pestering them for their winnings. Those who lost before will still lose. So no improvement on one side but worse outcome on the other. It would appear that your prrsonal definition of “bad” is “bad” in its own right.
I’m just as right in this new version of “need and greed with trading”.
None of the publicized “additional rules” will truly prevent the pestering part and the rule about not being eligible for a roll on an item that you already own with the exact same stats? Won’t do much outside the rare situation that the exact same item drops more than once in the exact same run and while one is still actively using the item in question. Anyone who rolls on an item for gold/ mats will be able to do so on the next occassion, because the item by then is no longer in their possession.
Which is no argument or proof for your claim that group loot will be an overall better experience. Fact of the matter: If Blizzard truly has to adjust “on the fly” that will be an indicator that it’s actually worse.
Oh, the changes to the loot system are live now are they? Strange, I wasn’t aware of that. When did Blizzard implement the changes on live realms?
Oh, they haven’t yet?
Yeah that’s what I thought.
You’re making your judgement based on what happens with the current system. You don’t know if that same behaviour is going to carry forward once everyone gets a chance to roll on boss loot.
Except they literally have.
If you already have the item, at the same ilvl, you cannot roll need on it unless it has a socket or tertiary stat (then it’s still an upgrade). If two of the same item drop from a boss, and you roll need on both and win one, then your roll is automatically removed from the other. Furthermore, if you’re say an enhancement shaman and you roll need on an item for restoration as your off-spec, you will not, ever, beat a shaman (or other healer capable of using that item if it’s an off-hand or weapon) who is main spec restoration/healing and need rolling for that same item. The loot priority is as follows Main spec Need > Off Spec Need > Greed.
Personally I would like to see an adjustment where, if you have an item the same ilvl or higher than what drops from a boss you can only roll need on those drops if it’s for your off-spec, not your main spec. Otherwise you must greed roll or pass. Hopefully that’s something Blizzard can accomodate as I think that would shore up the system further.
Again, you are not understanding that going into raid WEEK 1, no one is going to have all those items equipped. So they CAN roll on every equipable item they see. How can you not understand this???
Also the issues we brought up are NOT addressed in the new modified Group Loot. You keep saying they are, but they are not. THERE is NOTHING in the new group loot that will stop players from msg you directly in the game, “hey man thats really good for me, can I have?” or “Dude thats my BiS, can you please trade?” or “Man I been trying to get that for months, may I have it?”… Falsely claiming the NEW IMRPOVED Group Loot system will prevent this is just flat out wrong and completely false information your trying to spread.
EDIT: Furthermore, if anything this will make the whole issue of players getting geared up and then not showing up for future raids even worse if they are allowed to roll Need on every upgrade they can need on.
RANT: There two types of raiders in WoW. Those who raid to gear up and those who gear up to raid. Those who raid to gear up will vanish soon as they have the gear they wanted. At least personal loot put a slight snag in them gearing up ASAP and then vanishing and not showing up until next seasons raid.
That still puts you on equal footing with everyone else for main spec rolls. You will not be competing with folks rolling for off-spec.
As for the trade requests etc, you’re acting like folks going into this new system are going to act the same way as the old system, basing your opinion solely off how the old system functioned and how players responded to it.
You don’t know, at all, how players are going to react to the new system when they all have a shot at an item that drops.
THEY ARE THE SAME PLAYERS… New loot system doesn’t mean new player base…
If anything players getting hounded by loot hogs will not be able to say its an item level upgrade anymore to get them off your butt. Since the item will be ALWAYS TRADEABLE…
And yet those ‘same players’ didn’t act this way before personal loot became a thing.
In vanilla, TBC, WotLK and Cata, where there was no personal loot, players had their shot at winning an item, and if they won, they won. If they lost, they lost. Players accepted that and did not ‘beg’ for items back then.
The begging only started after personal loot became a thing, because they didn’t have a shot at getting the items that dropped, it was just given to someone in the raid who looted the boss.
Now we’re going back to group loot, where everyone has a shot. Could the status quo remain the same with players still begging? Sure it could. Will there be the occasional player who asks for an item they didn’t win? That’s possible. I’ll gladly admit when I’m wrong. The problem is you’re assuming you’re right with no evidence to support you other than ‘how things work now’ with a completely different system.
You’re comparing apples to oranges and trying to argue that things will be the same.
That is because most guilds loot counciled items or run DKP or EPGP systems. You didnt have players asking you for the item, because in the case of Loot Council, your buds already determined the item went to Player A vs Player B. Or in DKP/EPGP you already earned it and paid for it with your time and effort. That and if you did trade, you likely got chewed out by the Raid Leader or GM and possibly removed from raiding period. That and some items where SOUL BOUND soon as they where picked up. So the item was locked to you.
Everyone has a shot with Personal Loot. Only difference is your not directly fighting other players for said items. The computer rolls the dice behind the scene for everyone. Actually, BTW, there ARE going to be times when items drop no one can use or want… It happens in Classic all the time.
No I am not. Old GL vs new GL. If anything its a comparison between a Turd and a polished Turd… Regardless its still a TURD!
I’m talking about PUG groups which used group loot, both for dungeons and raids. Guilds almost always used master loot (in combination with their own loot distribution methods) which was a very different system.
Sure, behind the scenes they do, but the perception is what matters. Perception wise with personal loot it didn’t feel like you ‘had a shot’ because you didn’t see the rolls, you just looted the boss hoping to get lucky and often left disappointed since you got either gold or buff runes. The second chance token was as close to players got to ‘having a shot’ and more often than not you were burning tokens on gold, buff tokens or (during Legion and BFA) AP tokens.
Group loot with a need/greed system completely changes the perception. Now you see the loot, now you can hit that ‘need’ button and you’ll see the roll. That changes how people will react, especially when, as stated earlier, folks who don’t need an item can always pass on it or greed roll, where as with personal loot even if you didn’t want loot from a boss because it had nothing of value for your spec, you’d still get loot anyway.
You’re looking at how people act now to personal loot and claiming they’ll act the same with the new group loot system. The systems are different, the way players act while using them may change as well in the same way they changed when personal loot was first implemented.
Or it may not. I’m willing to admit that I may be wrong. I’m not pigheaded enough to believe that my way is the only way things can pan out.
End of the day though, this isn’t changing. Just like how when they forced personal loot it wasn’t changing. Either adapt with the times or find another game to play.
Tell me then: When prior to personal loot could a player trade the items that were won without GM intervention (who were increasingly under order and later strictly disallowed to actually do that)?
~cough~ Loot was not tradable back then and there certainly wasn’t lack of trying to get GMs involved for various reasons.
The begging started once people knew that a trade was possible. Trades are still possible with the new system (with even less limitations) yet somehow you expect that the begging will stop. ~laugh~
That’s an amusing level of naivité and a saddening lack of logical thinking.
In theory, sure. It’s also theoretically possible for it to happen with PL. it never happens because the probably is so low that it becomes functionally impossible, the same as will be the case with group loot.
/shrug. I understand that you don’t understand how it works and you don’t care to understand. You’d prefer to just be pissed off. Go ahead. I won’t stop you. Sulk if you like, group loot is coming Brotato.