Please return survival back to ranged or give hunters a 4th spec

Community General Discussion
443

Ok? No one claimed this.

Is this Naham’s alt or something? This line of reasoning only works if you can actually demonstrate how any of my points are horrible.

Uh, what? Are you listening to yourself? On any single issue when it comes to this game the majority of the playerbase fits into the “don’t care” column. This is common sense and no one disagrees with this. Most people have nothing to say on the Survival matter.

… if you play every class you would realise that taking one of three ranged specs to add to a pool of twelve melee specs is taking away variety.

I don’t care that someone who has no attachment to Hunter or any class for that matter only likes Hunters because there’s a melee spec now. The spec should not have been removed and replaced for the sake of people like you.

Melee Hunters were routinely mocked from Vanilla itself. SV was remembered as the PvP control spec.

And they have never lacked a ranged weapon, either, yet the current Survival does.

No Hunter spec before Legion was primarily a Legion fighter. You can’t excuse this away by saying “it adds flavour”.

Firstly, “flavour” is a meaningless catch-all buzzword used to justify all sorts of terrible design; it’s the positive equivalent of “clunky”.

Secondly, “variety” is not an excuse. Making one of the mage specs a physical melee fighter would certainly add variety to that class but I don’t think I need to explain why that’s a terrible idea. There’s adding variety and there’s replacing an existing choice which something that doesn’t fit either the class identity or the wants of the people of the class. Most Hunters rolled the class expecting ranged weapons so it was nice to have a variety of choice with ranged weapons. Taking away the ranged weapon from one of the specs is, for most Hunters, removing variety.

This is nonsense. Harpoon being reset is only an asset to a spec that has to be in melee like Survival. The other specs don’t miss it at all because they are ranged and therefore do not need a charge. Meanwhile, Survival is the only Hunter spec without one of the best solo questing tools in the game: Barrage. Hey, it had that when it was ranged. Guess that’s just another way the spec is a lateral downgrade over what it used to be.

Looks like you’re getting confused. The point of my mentioning this is to further debunk your ridiculous argument that Survival is better off in solo content for being melee.

Go look at how ranged Survival was played in solo content. You could pull a ton of enemies with Barrage, DoT them all up with Serpent Spread and then kite them around with shorter trap CDs with entrapment while keeping up the rot damage until they all dropped dead. It wasn’t as good as BM, but it was certainly miles ahead of the current SV. It was also a great demonstration of how SV was a unique spec with its own identity and not just a clone of MM like all the melee types think it was.

No, it is not nearly as bad because the ranged weapon is far more central to the identity of the Hunter than the pet.

https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

Note how the most important part is the ranged weapon; the pet comes second.

Just look at how petless Hunter was implemented. In WoD they just added a talent to MM and SV that took away the pet for a damage boost; it made a minimal change to the look and feel of each spec. Then look at how they had to make a melee Hunter; they had to totally remake one of the specs from the ground up. That’s the clearest indicator that ranged matters more.

You said multiple times early on that the selling point of Survival in BC was the better melee damage and that people were upset when the spec had ranged stuff added to it and eventually the melee stuff taken away. No one ever denied that we had a minimum range and Raptor Strike was good to use with Savage Strikes and a 2-hander when caught up close in PvP. What is being denied is that Hunters ever deliberately ran into melee – we didn’t.

Regardless, you have also claimed multiple times that the current SV is more representative of that SV back in BC. That makes no sense at all. You did at one point say Survival now is the reverse of BC Survival, which is the truest thing you’ve said but also a self-contradiction. Survival in BC was a ranged spec that situationally had to use melee abilities. Survival now is a melee spec that can still somewhat hold up in ranged. It’s also missing several of the iconic Survival control enhancements that the spec had up until legion like Entrapment and Trap Mastery. Fact is that the last iteration of ranged SV was far more true to the early iterations than the current one – even without the melee weapon.

7 Likes
444

In today’s WoW, yes. Sort of.
Back then? Not so much. Because it wasn’t designed for you to ignore your baseline abilities(which were all ranged abilities, using the ranged weapon) in favor of only using Raptor Strike + 2 situational melee abilities(talents).

You’re still not getting it.

I said: “Method of play” (what you choose to do in the game/how you choose to fight) is not the same as “intent of design” (meaning what the devs intended for the class to be played like, based on what abilities we had and the level of impact our talent choices had on the baseline toolkit).

We get it, you chose to only use your melee-abilities when fighting back then. But that does not mean that this was the most optimal way of playing as a hunter back then. Only using melee-abilities, was not how the devs intended the class to be played back then.

I’m sorry what?

Didn’t you say that the true potential could be achieved as a 100% melee-fighter as well?

Keeping the 3 unique ranged options while at the same time adding in a melee options as a 4th, would add more diversity within the class. Switching one for the other, does not.

A Rogue alone has more options for playstyles involving the use of melee-weapons than there are options for playstyles involving the use of ranged weapons in the entire game.
Then we also have Warriors, DKs, Shamans, DH’s, Pala’s, Monks. Along with Hunters(MSV) and sort of Druids(even though they are shapeshifters), who also provides additional options for playstyles involving the use of melee-weapons.

Read what it is that people are actually after.

We don’t simply want a ranged spec. We want the theme and aesthetics that was RSV, we want the mechanics that came with it. None of which can be found in the other 2 ranged specs we currently have.

Nor can we get it through those 2 without vastly changing their designs.

We’re not after what can be found in Classic.

Really?

Performance, is just numbers. You can get numbers from any spec in the game.

When people ask for RSV to return, they ARE asking for the actual theme, aesthetics, and the mechanics that came with it. We aren’t asking for numbers.

He frequently makes posts based on historical facts and statistics. He also posts the actual links for it/them, for you to check for yourself.

That’s not opinions.

You really need to calm down a bit.

If you enjoy something, that’s awesome. But…what?

That’s not what’s being debated.

Before…? Before Legion?

In Vanilla/BC, we had exactly 1 baseline damaging melee-ability. That was Raptor Strike.

We had another 2 damaging abilities coming from talent choices, though those two, were entirely situational and weren’t useful outside of PvP(and at times, not even in PvP).

Why not? That’s what they did to RSV. :wink:

He does not read the actual replies. He does not check any links posted. He prefers to remain ignorant as to what we actually had throughout history. Or in regards to history itself, in terms of what most players wanted.

I played SV from the Cata pre-patch up until HFC in WoD no matter how good or bad it was. I only switched during HFC because, like Bepples said earlier, they destroyed the spec’s performance so much that you could not justify bringing a SV hunter at all, at that point.

The majority of players who are playing the game, do not post anything on the forums.
Heck, most people don’t even visit these forums.

What Kargrave said.

If no one reads his so called “wall of text-posts” then how do you know that his points are horrible?

But, by all means, provide us with some horrible points of his.
Note: that I already disagree with Bepples on his demand for MSV to be removed.

He has actually acknowledged that this was my first suggestion in this very post. Though his reply was that: we should not have a 4th spec, we should not get out playstyle back, combined with the best thing they can do, is to implement a few of the old RSV abilities into BM/MM.

Also not what we said.

Again: You choose to play the spec/class however you want to.
But your claims that what you chose to do back then equals the intended design of the class back then, are false.

There is a distinct difference between players calling you out for making false statements contrary to saying that you’re wrong for playing in w/e way you want to.

You can fall back on things like this, as much as you want to. But that still does not make your claims true.

Don’t bother. He doesn’t actually read any replies directed back at him. AS it allows him to remain ignorant.

:face_with_monocle:

Yeah…

It only replaced one version of “flavor and variety” for the sake of another.

Incorrect.

Or well, sure, we have always been able to equip a melee weapon, but that’s not the same thing.

Compared to a ranged spec that did not need to charge in?

2 Likes
445

Pretty easy to do.

Interjecting his opinion as fact.

Again

1 Like
446

Your side was the one that threw a fit, stamped your feet, and ripped a spec away that a lot of people enjoyed.

And you got priority over people who liked the class as it was because Blizz is sadists who enjoy the gang mentality and hurting their playerbase.

“All i’ll say is you’re still garbage of a person and you deserve to be removed from the community… Nothing you say is “right”, it’s your opinion.”

Is he a garbage person in objective truth who actually deserves to be removed from the community in objective reality or is that just your opinion?

4 Likes
447

Well, first off, that particular statement, stems from a previous question Bepples asked.
That question, was this:

He commented on another players reply about how that player enjoyed SV being melee focused. Something that player first attempted to justify by claiming how it’s “better” for certain types of content. I mean, sure, it’s his opinion, that he enjoys what MSV is. But his claim that it’s somehow better because of being melee, was not correct.

That players also presented his opinion towards how the current design model for hunter specs is, to him, at least somewhat enjoyable. Again, sure, it’s what he thinks. Nothing more.

Then, he talked about BM, and how he thinks that it feels like “ranged melee”, w/e that means…

Then he comments on MSV by saying “Having an actual melee with a pet build adds flavour”. And sure, that statement in itself is true. Though he just said that BM is “ranged melee” which is exactly the same base concept of the current MSV, that of a "ranged and melee fighter, with a pet “build”.

Due to this, Bepples then asked what people actually mean with “flavour”. If it’s just an expression/word people use to excuse bad design. Followed by saying: “Sure seems like it”

That player then answered with a partial quote:

That answer, was incorrect as well. For Hunters specifically, it did not add “flavour”. All it did, was switch one spec variant for another.
For classes in general, the introduction of MSV actually reduced the “flavour and variety” of playstyle options accessible.

Why?

As have been said before, we already have a lot of playstyle options in the game focusing on melee-combat using melee weapons.

Meanwhile, we had 3 playstyle options in the game focusing on ranged combat with a weapon. After the implementation of MSV, we now have only 2.

And, especially now in BfA, where MSV has “borrowed” several abilities and effects from BM, we now have even less flavour and variety within the class, and within the game as a whole.

Bepples thought of that in the same way, hence why he, this time, replied with:
Firstly, “flavour” is a meaningless catch-all buzzword used to justify all sorts of terrible design

He finished that by saying:

Which also was correct. As, prior to Legion, the class had an identity as a ranged class. It had no identity of primary focus on melee combat.
And, due to that, most if not all hunters back then actually chose to play as hunters to opt into ranged combat, using a ranged weapon.

That also meant that, if you take one of those ranged options away in favor of adding in a melee option, it WOULD remove variety within the class(based on the actual players who play that class, or at the very least, most of those players).

This, was confirmed by the devs themselves. Where it was said that MSV was not necessarily designed for current hunters(those who were playing at the time), and that we should not have felt a need to switch to MSV.

What the devs(Ion) forgot there, was that there were already thousands of players playing as RSV, and who liked that playstyle. They were now essentially forced to switch specs as one of 3 ranged weapon-specs was now going to be removed.

Not again.

As, when they removed the option for 1 spec to make proper use of a ranged weapon, we had already been capable of playing without pets for several years.

The difference here, is that all hunter specs can still make use of pets. Even MM.
But not all hunter specs have an option to rely on ranged weapons.

Having said that, as I’ve said before, I personally have nothing against the idea of the Hunter class having the option to focus on melee combat over ranged. What I have a problem with, is that the devs chose to give us this option as a replacement to another, already existing, option. One that was actually more in line with what most hunters back then were interested in. That being ranged combat, using a ranged weapon. As, that was the only way for us to play back then.

5 Likes
448

Really? can you show me a source where a class designer says the gun is more iconic of the hunter rather than having a pet? If not, its your opinion. Thats what makes a weak argument. Every spec at its first design had a pet and a ranged weapon.

Is still an opinion, my man. That’s what makes it a weak argument, and a Gish Gallop.

1 Like
449

If you want Blizzard to change it…

…you have to pretend you’re having so much fun with it!

2 Likes
450

and i never claimed to be a fanatic for melee combat.
but assumptions are a pain huh?

1 Like
451

In this case, it’s not about what a class designer says. It’s about the actual design of the class itself, as for what it was like, prior to Legion.

Prior to WoD, I would agree that, due to design, both pets and ranged weapons were on equal footing in terms of being iconic features for the class.

With WoD, they changed it so that we now had the option to opt out of using pets(MM+RSV). Though, we still had the option to use them as well.

With Legion, they changed it so we now had the option(a spec) which allowed you to opt out of using ranged weapons.

But…

The difference now, is that as MSV, there is no alternative. You cannot use a ranged weapon with your abilities. Only a melee weapon.

As I’ve said, if you ask me, that in itself is okay. It’s okay to have such an option. But it’s NOT okay to completely remove options for playstyles which involve the use of ranged weapons.

The same as for how it would NOT be okay if they had decided that MM should not be able to use a pet at all.

Hence why I’m personally suggesting that, in order for us all to get what we want, we should have a 4th spec option which provides us with the RSV-spec(a modern version of it).

2 Likes
452

A person who designed the class, would be able to answer “whats more iconic to the hunter, the pet, or the ranged aspect?” So it is? You could also make the argument the fact they have a spec WITHOUT ranged invalidates that claim.

No matter what you slice it. It’s an opinion. I’m not debating whats more iconic, i’m not debating if the removal of ranged survival is bad or good.

I said Bepples performs Gish Gallop styles. He does. I’ve shown you multiple examples how. He got laughed out of the hunter forums for it.

2 Likes
453

What? so i should just stand here and allow him to step over me.
You want me to turn the other cheek?
I don’t care about the spec itself anymore, the way he’s been treating other people is what makes him unfit to form part of a community.
If your social circles allow and promote the bad treatment and insulting of other people then i feel sorry for you.
Yes, i am mad… and not a single point of my anger to him is about spec design and preference for a playstyle, it’s simply the way he insults people for not agreeing with him.
“You’re not posting from a Hunter so you should shut up and stand in the corner with a dunce hat”, nice way to engage in civil conversation…

3 Likes
454

I’m gonna ask you something, seriously.
After this you can continue making whatever claim you want, i’m off.

Can you individually point each aspect that made Survival back then unique?
I’ve read all the general descriptions.
“It focus on surviving”, “it had tools for different situations”, “it provided something enjoyable”.
Can you specifically and individually point out with spells, skills and tools that made Survival unique and something that would validate adding a new spec or returning Survival to ranged?

I’ve played an alt hunter since late MoP, but i mostly only played MM back then and onward because i didn’t like pet management.

1 Like
455

Ranged survival had great aoe, burst damage, good utility, and could have a pet without penalty (forced lonewolf). Was mobile ranged and ok single target.
It was far from useless
That spec was far more interesting than MM or BM to me

5 Likes
456

What i find funny in this circle of arguments is pro ranged survival players is open to ideas to keep both aspects of survival. Pro melee survival players only want to keep their aspect stomp any other idea to ground and jokingly laugh rsv is dead reroll drop topic. When those is only trying to have civilized discussion is cut down with just troll posts. I will be pro ranged survival forever nothing will stop me from wanting what i want or how bad i want something back.

8 Likes
457

If you make it about what people think is iconic, then that goes for everyone, not just for developers.

If you’re not talking about the design itself but solely about what individuals associate the most with being a Hunter in WoW, then it’s actually impossible to state anything the likes of which, as being facts. In other words, you might think that Bepples tried to present it as a fact, but it’s just not possible since, as by your logic, it’s only about what people/individuals think themselves.

In the modern WoW, yes. But prior to Legion, no.

And since this whole discussion is about ranged SV(which was deleted going into Legion). What is…the most “iconic” feature of the class today, is of less importance.

And, as for this:

Which is what you claimed Bepples to be doing, and he refuted.
And, you are incorrect on this. The “technique” of gish galloping, is not possible for a forum discussion. You can not overwhelm forum posters with arguments for the purpose of them losing a debate due to time restraints.

Gish Gallop

During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate. In practice, each point raised by the “Gish galloper” takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place. The technique wastes an opponent’s time and may cast doubt on the opponent’s debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact-checking is involved or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics.

Generally, it is more difficult to use the Gish gallop in a structured debate than in a free-form one.

There are no time restraints on making forum posts. If you need time to go through what someone’s saying, take your time. If you don’t want to, that’s your choice.

Sure, Bepples writes a lot in his posts. The thing is though, it’s not his fault if other players aren’t interested in reading it. It has nothing to do with them not having the time to do so.

7 Likes
458

Says who?

No, developers would know what they intended man.

1 Like
459

The simple answer is, look at representation, which Bepples provided logs of.

Why wouldn’t you bring back a spec that was the most played hunter spec, was the most popular alt of choice and was literally the most made character according to things like realmpop at the time?

Why would you, alienate the largest portion of your playerbase, to make a niche spec that targets those who don’t even play hunters? Even now, MSV’s representation is so laughably low, like horribly low. It peaks at like 1-2% representation in all forms of content on GOOD days. But tends to average in the 0.5% to 1% range.

Serpent Sting, Serpent Spread, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot. Black Arrow being able to proc Lock and Load to reset Explosive Shot. Making sure to not clip Explosive Shot(until that was changed to not matter during MoP, if I recall). It was fluid at the core while also being reactive by nature. BM and MM were nothing compared to it in how it played.

Sure, BM and MM had Serpent Sting back then as well but Survival enhanced it. Hell, often times MM wouldn’t even use Serpent Sting and at times literally only used Steady Shot and Aimed Shot(ICC during Armor Penetration days).

Like I said, Survival was fluid while also being reactive, it had a really nice balance. Some patches it wasn’t the best in damage output and it wasn’t that great for burst(due to the random nature of Lock and Load procs), some patches it had pretty good burst(not as good as BM or MM’s though), but it was good consistent damage all around. Even during times when it wasn’t performing that well, it was STILL one of the most popular specs in the game and the highest represented Hunter spec. Why is that? Cause it was, fun. Fluid. Reactive. Mobile.

Explosive Shot was, and still is one of the coolest abilities WoW has ever had. And the interactions with Black Arrow via Lock and Load procs only added to that. The abomination that they made Explosive Shot which was tossed into the MM tree during Legion isn’t even remotely similar to the old one. There was also something extremely satisfying about Serpent Spread for Multi Shot.

I know your post wasn’t directed at me, but just figured I’d add my opinion.

But truthfully, like I said. There is a reason Ranged Survival was one of the highest represented specs in the game, consistently the highest represented Hunter spec(even during patches when it wasn’t top), and had the highest representation across all characters based off realmpop. Likewise, there is a reason why Melee Survival is one of the least represented specs in the game, has among the lowest representation for hunters, etc…

Blizzard openly admitted they knew the vast majority of the hunter playerbase, especially those of us who were RSV weren’t the target audience of the change to melee. They knew RSV was the most popular Hunter spec. But they did it anyway. It just all screams the question “Why not just implement a melee spec as a 4th from the get go”. Instead, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of us were forced to swap specs, reroll or quit. And personally, I know several people who quit over this whole nonsense.

Personally, If I was Ion or a dev, I would do everything I could to bring the hunter community back together. Embrace melee Survival for its niche community while also making sure Ranged Survival saw a return due to its popularity and the players who still long for it to come back. And I know for a fact, that if and when RSV comes back, whether in its MoP or WoD form, or perhaps similar but expanded a bit on while keeping the core identity of what it was intact. I can easily say its representation will skyrocket past BM and MM and most certainly MSV. And assuming its identity of what it was is intact, it’d bounce up to being one of the most played specs in the game again.

Through all its ups and downs. RSV was consistent at being represented by a vast, vast majority. Always at the top, or among the top in that. Up until they killed it during HFC just like how they killed Demonology.

7 Likes
460

Citation?

i wasn’t aware it being least played meant that the people who did play it didn’t enjoy it?

isn’t survival currently a melee spec? Because someone enjoys that they can’t have an opinion?

Again, because someone enjoys melee it makes the opinion bad? How is that a a valid argument? Couldn’t one say he favors ranged so his opinion is bad and biased?

If you don’t think that’s Gish Galloping man, I can’t help you. You can feel free to disagree. That’s your opinion and not i’m going to debate you on that.

461

Edit/Note: Illidette went into more specific details in his post above here regarding abilities and mechanics.

Well, the last time when we had RSV, was during WoD.

In that expansion, the only truly unique aspects of each specialization, was the very core itself.

Talents were pretty much the same for all specializations(by intended design), this does somewhat cause specs to appear more similar to one another as you could not further define the individual core of each one(like we can today).

But yeah…

To summarize:

BM back then, was thematically about strengthening pets, and about pets strengthening yourself. As well as summoning in additional beasts.
It made use of a ranged weapon, but it did not have a main focus on the use of ranged weapons.

MM on the other hand, has since we got it as a specialization, been about archery/sharpshooting. About taking your time to aim properly, to hit that perfect spot. There, the main focus have always been the weapon itself.

RSV like MM, was focusing on the ranged weapon. Though, not in the same way as it’s theme was about the ammunition itself and about enhancing it. It’s theme was not about the aiming of the weapon. RSV, contrary to MM, was also about enhancing traps. The trap-part was even more apparent in earlier iterations of the spec.

If we talk mechanics…

BM have always been about shorter burst periods and CD management(more so than the other specs). And, it has mostly been about attacks that deal instant damage when used. AoE-wise, it has mostly been about stacked, sustained AoE. Through Beast Cleave.

MM, was generally somewhat similar in this regard. Much about instant damage, and even more so about big hits. And a bit less so about CD management.
The tradeoff for those big hits, was often that the main ability/abilities had a longer cast time. And sometimes required you to stand still when casting.

RSV, in WoD at least, did not even have any major CD. It was a very proc-based playstyle that relied on RNG. Contrary to BM and MM, the core mechanics of RSV, were about dealing damage over time(DoTs).
That in itself instantly makes the spec unique when compared to either BM or MM.

Specifically…

BM relied on CDs that acted as passive damage amplifiers/power-ups. Such as Bestial Wrath and Focus Fire.

MM relied on big hitters that often required more time to cast.

RSV relied on none of those, but on consistency, through said DoTs.

I could link the individual abilities tied to each spec back then but honestly, you can find those via a quick google search. There’s no need for me to copy-paste them all into here. If you want even more in depths specifics, I’m sure there are others here who could do such comparisons.

As for the future, and why we should now implement a spec such as RSV.

If brought into Legion(or fast forward to today, Shadowlands), it would have it’s natural path of development being about making it focus even more on DoTs, on various ways to build those up, either in terms of strength or in terms of duration.
It would’ve been the natural thing to make RSV be the spec which focused on multi-dotting capabilities, due to it’s core abilities and how you could double down on those.

For specifics, check this(my own complete concept) suggestion:

You tell me, would such a spec as seen in that link, play like either BM or MM does today? Despite how all of them would actually be specs that relied on using ranged weapons. We can even throw in MSV here, though that is not needed as MSV is a melee spec(at least by intent).

Yes x10

5 Likes
462

No. But you’re both firmly in the “I’m right, you’re wrong” camp.

He’s wrong that his viewpoint is objective. So are you.

Neither matters because nobody should be able to tell others how they [can’t] have fun.

Most of the people posting from hunters have a boosted character they barely play, so I don’t care whether people are posting from hunters either.

I just said it sucks that I had to lose something I liked so other people who weren’t playing hunters or didn’t like them could have a hunter they would play.

It was already the most played class.

4 Likes