Why should I care what you like?
My posts are long because I respond to multiple people and I elaborate my points. A Gish Gallop is when you rapid-fire as many arguments as possible into a debate regardless of how valid they are (i.e. not elaborating/backing them up like I do) so the opponent can’t possibly keep up. It works well in spoken debates with time limits. It doesn’t really work on a written forum where anyone can take as much time as they want debunking someone.
Are you even reading what you’re replying to? Because it sure doesn’t seem like it.
I’ll repeat what I said: no one is arguing that there was no melee for Hunters. It is well known that there was situational melee in the past. What is being disputed is that the current Survival represents that; the current Survival is a melee fighter with situationally ranged utility. That’s the opposite of what it used to be.
Plus, you have people claiming it was viable to spend most of your time in melee as a Hunter back in Classic/BC. That’s just not true.
You’re not wrong. I’ve seen people flatly admit they like Survival because it pisses off Hunters.
There were hardly any people at all clamouring for a melee Hunter before 2015 yet it still happened. This was clearly not a decision made with respect to popular sentiment. Stop pretending it was.
I tell people I don’t care because they are trying to drum up sympathy with posts like “I like melee Survival, please don’t take away my spec!”. “Their spec” only exists because some other peoples’ spec was taken away. No complaints from them about that, though, because it benefited them and they don’t care.
It’s better in your opinion because you are infatuated with melee and don’t give a damn about ranged players, plain and simple.
This game as a whole needs to represent a diversity in playstyles. Some people like ranged weapons, some people like melee weapons. Hunters had the burden of representing ranged weapons and that’s why all 3 of the specs used them; it was the defining element of the class. People then came to the class expecting and preferring ranged weapons.
So it makes zero sense to take away one of the ranged options in exchange for yet another melee spec. There are already so many melee specs in the game; people who like melee already have the majority of the playstyle variety. Meanwhile, it takes away a full 1/3 of the playstyle variety of ranged weapons. For people who like ranged weapons and for most Hunters it actively reduced their playstyle variety because, as even Blizzard admits, most of them are not open to a melee spec.
You’re not seeing an issue because you’re being wilfully ignorant. People who liked ranged weapons got utterly screwed by making Survival melee; it removed a full 1/3 of their playstyle choice just so melee lovers like you could have a 13th melee option. The only perspective that makes this a good thing is one of unchecked and rampant selfishness from melee players.
You’re the one who repeatedly made false claims about classic and BC WoW and refused to even try to back any of them up.
There are a multitude of threads going all the way back to 2015 asking for ranged Survival back. Plus, you act like it’s only people on the forums who want it back and everyone in game is fine with the way things are. I meet plenty of people in game who want ranged Survival back.
Try this out: go to each class forum and sort topics by number of posts. The biggest thread on all the class forums is on the Hunter forum and it’s one asking for ranged Survival back.
It’s not as niche a topic as you think it is.
The sources I link with respect to raid participation are literally hard data on what specs people are playing in raids. What on earth are you getting at here?
Plus, the obvious reality is that the majority of players don’t have a stake in this debate at all. We can’t really quantify how many people support each side, but the fact is Survival was a vastly more popular spec when it was ranged. This point here is more anecdotal, but it’s worth pointing out: typically the people who are more in favour of melee Survival seem to have less investment in the class. I mean, you’re one of the biggest defenders of melee Survival in this thread and you have admitted you don’t even play it.
Ironic considering you are having the most spectacular meltdown right now because you couldn’t handle being called out for being badly informed on a topic.
Fact is you knew your opinion was misinformed but you still thought it was worth dumping it into the thread anyway. You can’t complain when someone calls you out on it. You had nothing of value to offer the thread from the very start.
Actually, no, we played Survival because it was fun and interesting. In fact, there were raids when most Hunters were playing Survival even when it wasn’t the best simply because the playstyle was more popular. Siege of Orgrimmar is an example of this.
… being melee makes it categorically and objectively worse for world questing and levelling. It has literally nothing on BM in those areas. Not only does BM have better pet damage and therefore better pet tanking but it also has Barrage for pulling a lot of mobs at once. I got server first 100, 110, and 120 on the back of BM being by far the best solo spec in the game.
Has “flavour” become the new catch-all buzzword to excuse all bad design? Sure seems like it. I know the Classic players like that a lot to defend all the “flavourful” designs such as Hunters being on a static 2-button rotation for all of PvE. Regardless, taking away one of three ranged specs to add a 13th melee spec actively reduces variety and flavour.
This does fit in with the only real purpose of Survival being cosmetic/RP fluff for melee lovers.
“I prefer Arms Warrior so delete one of the Hunter specs” - melee players this whole time
…they were, though. The melee side of the class was purely situational, and a compensation for not being able to use ranged abilities within 8 yards. All the specs had a ranged weapon and preferred to use it as much as possible. There was no viable way to play primarily in melee range, which is the only viable way to play Survival now.
Yes, they had a situational melee toolkit. They also all had ranged weapons and overwhelmingly preferred to use those as much as possible.
https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png
The original description of the Hunter class says in no uncertain terms that ranged weapons are what makes Hunters unique. Literally in the first sentence.
Said it even better than I could. Melee players just don’t give a damn about other people’s preferences. I’ve even seen them demanding Discipline Priest become a melee DPS spec.
This is what happens when you give in to even one of their spec revamp demands. Give them and inch and they will take a mile.
Changing Survival back to ranged would not only be an important step in repairing the Hunter class identity and community divide but it would also be a clear message that people can’t just go around demanding that long-established specs from other classes should be remade just for them against the wishes of the people currently playing the spec.
Because we were there first. Melee colonists shouldn’t have say over the Hunter class direction.
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Bold of you to assume im a melee fanatic…
and i highely doubt everyone that plays wow posts on the forums. a decent number mostly.
But not all of them.
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I’d be fine with them adding in a 4th rot ranged spec for hunters that is similar to old Survival.
But not at the expense of removing melee Survival. Only thing worse than making a controversial mistake is making it twice in a row.
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It does when you use giant post to mask your horrible points, because no one will read that giant wall of text. You tried it in the hunter forums too and get called out.
See here is what you do to execute it.
Weak argument
In a wall of text.
Enamored with melee? I play every class multiple different specs. That is why I like class and spec diversity. I made a new worgen hunter to try melee survival. It sounds interesting.
Seems more like you’re enamored with the old survival ranged spec. I like to try tons of different classes and specs. The only reason I even thought about survival because I think a melee spec with a pet seems like a cool option. Otherwise, I’d just do beast again.
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I mean you’re also describing yourself, so there’s that irony.
Edit; You’re also happily ignoring that no one wants melee Surv removed. A 4th spec to get an elemental/magic ranged playstyle back, however, was asked for. So as far as fairness or appeasing players goes, I’d say the ones arguing that we should just suck up our loss are in the wrong.
But, you’re right and we’re wrong and you’re gonna make long winded TL;DR posts about it until your hands fall off. Not much different from what you claim your opponents do.
You, I readily agree with. I hated losing ranged Surv, I’d never want fans of melee Surv to lose their spec so I could get mine back,
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I know they don’t want surv removed. They just dislike how I have a different experience from it and then telling me I did it wrong. I mean if you’re going to ignore that then you’re not different from their mindset either.
Um that’s Bepples, Ghorak and Illidette so far being the champions of TL:DR posts. You’re probably one of them too, but just waiting for me to say a specific word that will trigger ya to do a TL;DR post. If you’re not the type then that’s good. Keep it short and simple.
So you must also consider yourself a ranged class because you can throw a knife at things.
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I’d rather they kept hunters how they are and changed subtlety rogues to a fully ranged ninja spec. In fact, all of the pure classes could use this kind of shaking up. Arcane is pretty boring, make it a spellbreaker instead.
Let me quote one thing, that I’m going to redirect back to you.
Again, as Ghorak said, design of play and method of play are two different things. Staying melee permanently as old Survival was not the intended design and in fact, only served to gimp you and hinder your group if doing group content. Like I said, people can play how they want, I even acknowledged I went against cookie cutter builds and the grain of what is normal before. But that is a lot different when Survival, no, when Hunters in general literally just had a few melee abilities for filler due to the Deadzone.
Again, why do you think Survival had talents like it did? Entrapment gave your traps a chance to root/snare targets hit. Improved Wing Clip gave your Wing Clip a chance root the target. Surefooted increased your Hit Rating against targets affected by your traps while also decreasing mobs resistance to your traps. Survival talents enhanced your ability to keep things CC’d so you could stay at ranged. While also enhancing your defensive ability and melee abilities for when things did inevitably get into your Deadzone.
No one is arguing that Survival didn’t have the ability to do some stuff in melee, though BM and MM could as well. The entire premise being, Survival was designed around, well, Survival. It focused on those aspects, doubly so you could be back to ranged.
Listen to what you just said. Reread what you said until you see it. What you said IS LITERALLY WHAT WE’VE BEEN SAYING. Survival was designed to not be completely useless when things did get in your face. But being in melee combat 100% of the time was not the intended playstyle, which is what you and numerous others keep clamoring on about. No one is denying that Survival could dish out a good Raptor Strike and Wing Clip combo before retreating to ranged. But everyone and their mother also knows that if you purposely ran into a Warrior or Rogue’s face just to spam Raptor Strike, or if you ran up to Ragnaros just to spam Raptor Strike, well…you were doing it severely wrong.
Finally, bye friend!
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Minor correction: it increased your hit chance against everything. That part didn’t depend on traps.
Oof.
I was looking at the old trees, trying to find all these talents that made melee 100% viable as the only source of damage, since all our friends keep claiming melee was the proper way to play. I mainly mentioned Surefooted though because of the trap resistance bit. Since it further enhanced our ability to keep things CC’d and out of our face. 
The idea of removing Melee hunters isn’t going to sit well with those who complained and fought for melee hunters to become a thing before Legion. (Yes, there was a following, many people are very happy with Melee Survival)
So what you’re saying is there was a group that lobbied to have a spec obliterated and got their wish?
Huh. Whatever happened to that being a crappy thing to do?
Got the love the hypocrisy of MSV defenders. Acting like a bunch of jerks about it really seals the deal.
Survival is just fury warrior with a pet. Go play fury warrior.
#notmyhunter
Snark aside. I wouldn’t actually call for msv to be removed, but removing one of the handful ranged specs in world of meleecraft and not replacing it with anything was a dick move by blizzard. Hunter is the only physical ranged dps and has only 2 specs representing that playstyle. Surely asking for more representation of that playstyle isn’t uncalled for? Even from just a fantasy standpoint?
It doesn’t even have to be a hunter spec. I would take a ranged rogue spec as a different take on it (4th spec only of course).
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I’d say more so arms, but that is still a funny thing to imagine
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Actually players back then viewed them as combat rogues in mail due to deterrence and counterattack being activated when parrying. That riposte vibe 
.
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2h rogues with doggo pet!
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No it adds flavour and variety to the hunter class. They have always had the ability to use melee weapons.
Nope. SV with harpoon resetting on a kill give it an amazing utility - i want this change to a warrior’s charge instead of waiting on a recharge.
Congrats - BM is still that amazing solo spec. If you always are going to play BM why does the SV change to melee affect you?
Does lone wolf being in MM affect you as such - hunters have always had pets. To add a spec based around no pet would break the class identity more than a melee playstyle.
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I mean…
you gotta point there…
Or Dual wield . I wish classic had the talent resourcefulness because that was a huge help to maintain mana usage on melee abilities.
Unfortunately that’s what you guys are 100% assuming hence why you can’t understand where I am coming from. You don’t fully read, but instead enforce sources to make a point not realizing they’re useless on the matter.
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