Please return survival back to ranged or give hunters a 4th spec

[Mandriani-ragnaros (Mandriani)]

Give us that 4th option and we’re done with this.

I agree with you. 4th spec would fix the problems but lets be realistic I don’t think Blizzard will ever do that, why? because other classes would request it as well. Dont get me wrong I would love every class had a 4th spec.

If another 4th spec would ever be implemented I would give it to shaman. Even Demon Hunter deserves it more than hunter since they only have 2

But the solution as I see it is:

1. Incorporate rsv gameplay into current mm or msv specs through talents so players can have more gameplay options without impacting the current functionality or core rotation.
2. Remove msv and set rsv (terrible option)
3. Do nothing. (Not as Bad imho)

Option 2 can go to hell

[Kissmytotems-proudmoore (Kissmytotems)]

4th spec ain’t going to fix nothing. we don’t need anymore. Blizz can not keep up with what they have. and don’t tell me they can they just gave up on enhance til later probably more than enh i just play this one. i’m tired of people asking for new class or more specs. they can’t keep up now. in my opinion mm is the most destroyed spec and they really haven’t put much time in trying to fix.

[Frîsto-area-52]

So one of the claim is that surv is currently least played so it should be replace by another least played spec?

Survival before it went melee wasn’t even the least played spec ever. Matter of fact. That didn’t happen until late WoD when they nerfed it the GROUND like they did demonology

[Vexani-stormrage]

yet i don’t see warlocks getting a melee spec but they are “ranged with a pet” as well

Not gonna lie, I’d probably play Warlock if they had a melee spec.

[Mysterypants-moonrunner (Mysterypants)]

And yet MM was one of the least played spec and never got removed so bring me back to my point. Just because MSV is least played means little

[Queue-deviate-delight]

No. Keep survival how it is. Much better than it has been over the years.

[Brutalistica-greymane (Brutalistica)]

That doesn’t change the fact that it had a ranged weapon and was intended to use it. You’re just doubling down on your terrible understanding of the Hunter class in vanilla. The class was ranged, period. Specs did not define your entire playstyle and identity back then like they do now. They actually contributed very little to those things in comparison to the base class when it came to the pure DPS classes.

Blizzard has gone on record now saying that focusing on spec identity over class identity was a problem. They’ve specifically named Survival as an example of this. I don’t think that means they are bringing ranged Survival back soon, but it does mean melee will be taking an increasingly marginal role in the spec to the point where there is really no reason for it to be in the spec at all. We are already mostly there in BFA and with Kill Shot coming back that is going to become even more apparent.

Dude the fact you’re going this far tells me you just prefer Survival as the range style and never had any intention of using the melee side of it during the old days. I mean you’re literally talking to a an old survival expert who excelled at it, but that ego of yours is blinding that logic you don’t want to accept.

What part of “Vanilla Survival used a ranged weapon” do you not understand? Yes, we all know Survival had talents that buffed melee damage. I have already explained to you repeatedly why this is the case. It did not make Survival a melee spec. The spec still had a ranged weapon and was still intended to stay at ranged for as long as possible. This is why it also had Entrapment (oh look, something else it had until Legion removed it) and Improved Wing Clip. You certainly weren’t intended to stick to melee range. Why on earth would a spec intended for PvP deliberately put itself in such a disadvantageous situation? Give it at least a minute of thought before posting again.

This entire time you are weasel-wording to try to argue that a spec without a ranged weapon today is closer to the original version of the spec, which DID have a ranged weapon that it preferred to use whenever possible, to all the subsequent iterations of that spec that also had a ranged weapon and things like better CC. This is what happens when a Warrior with minimal investment in the Hunter class tries to give commentary on Hunter class design. I’ve seen your posts on this topic over the years. Every. Single. Comment you make on this topic is so breathtakingly misinformed and ignorant that I’m inclined to believe you are proud of your lack of knowledge on the Hunter class.

You know I am slowly starting to remember you now and yeah you’re lustful for survival range than melee. I bet you forgot during Wotlk is when they nerf survival melee damage by hard. I used to do 10k crits using raptor strike in BC, but in wotlk it was watered down to 2k. That’s where I lost interest, but still continued as a hunter, but part time than full time. The problem with you is that you want people to accept your “understandings of a hunter” and not the other way. Doesn’t work that way kid and it makes you look more immature than knowing it.

Uh, no. This is not a matter of personal preference. Formerly being able to use a ranged weapon and do full damage at ranged, and then no longer being able to do that, is an objective, categorical downgrade. Survival is literally being sat out of raiding and M+ right now primarily because it is melee and the other Hunter specs are ranged. It takes god-tier delusion to pretend that’s a matter of personal preference.

Debatable considering you’re hardly a survival hunter and mostly a range type. We get it you’re a range favorite, but it’s good they branched away from that concept making survival to what it was suppose to be. However knowing you with this lust for range you’ll argue that statement of mine. By all means go ahead if you want, but you already know the result your words has little meaning to reality.

Oh, really? Is it my personal opinion that Survival in Vanilla used a ranged weapon and it does not now? Do you accept that fact or not?

Also, look at any representation statistics for once. Ranged Survival was far, far more popular than melee SV was. There were tiers where ranged SV was literally the most played spec in the game. Melee Survival has never been out on the bottom 5, and is usually either last or second-last. It has literally never seen a world first kill. Even in rated PvP, its very best area right now where it’s one of the better specs in the game, it still has only about half of the rated PvP representation as the last time it was ranged.

You guys can sure talk up Survival a ton on these forums, but when push comes to shove hardly any of you actually show up to play it. When they first added Explosive Shot to Survival back in 2008 Hunters were excited and hyped and actually took up the spec, and they kept it populated until they were effectively evicted in WoD. This is the difference between making a Hunter spec for Hunters and hijacking a Hunter spec in order to chase melee rerolls.

The only role SV fulfils right now is being the circus freak of class design.

The fact you’re trying to enforce your fact means you’re wrong. It’s not a fact at all. Was survival range was far more popular than melee? If you want the real truth as a former survival hunter from the old days. Survival spec regardless of your narrative you love to preach was hardly popular at all. The only fun that was fun on survival hunters was using the melee weapons especially in pvp, but when it came to raiding that was literally marksmanship hunters which is your current spec. Ironic isn’t it?

What part of what you quoted there was toxic?

I know you’re his cheerleader and in his post it’s there, but you’d still be in disbelief.

He is not ignoring the old SV talents.

He’s just ignoring the fact people will have different opinions, but want his to be righteous as if he was the sole best range survival hunter in town. His ego level is overloaded with nonsense if you ask me.

You(Brutalistica) on the other hand, are ignoring the fact that we had no defined specializations back then. We had the core toolkit of the class(which was designed around ranged combat). Any talents you chose, would only add to that core toolkit. No matter what talents you picked, you would still have a design based around ranged combat, using a ranged weapon.

Yeah and melee had a little play in it especially if you survival, but this talk was already done. You’re just rambling at this point to prove nothing. You can throw in the towel at anytime along with your buddy.

You do know that this is a worthless argument don’t you?

Ranged weapons for Warrs and Rogues back then, saw even less use than melee weapons for Hunters did.

And considering the only reason we as Hunters had melee weapons back then, was due to the min. attack-range on our ranged weapons, that says a lot.

I mean if you want me to be serious. All of your arguments along with Bepples and Solric has been nothing, but worthless egotistic arguments. You can’t accept other players opinions who had a different exposure to it. Face it. You’re not right and never will be. Range survival is dead and it’s good that way. Case Closed

[Frîsto-area-52]

If you want the real truth as a former survival hunter from the old days. Survival spec regardless of your narrative you love to preach was hardly popular at all.

So cause YOU played the spec you and/or hardly saw anyone play it, it wasn’t popular? Great logic

[Hellasha-alleria (Hellasha)]

They took away the spec we enjoyed first. This is just about getting our spec back.

You’re right they did, from Classic to Wrath survival was the spec with all the melee enhancing traits. That was taken away from us in Cata. So they’re simply restoring survival to it’s original glory.

[Ralanthel-thrall (Ralanthel)]

make melee survival a tank spec where you and your pet share damage and stuff, and give use back ranged survival as a 4th spec

A tanking spec for Hunters would actually be amazing since most of them try to pull the whole dungeon anyway.

[Brutalistica-greymane (Brutalistica)]

So cause YOU played the spec you and/or hardly saw anyone play it, it wasn’t popular? Great logic

No. That wasn’t the statistics back then. Marksmanship hunter was the main raiding spec. Beast Mastery and Survival wasn’t too popular. They were used, but if you wanted to get somewhere like get gear and have high dps. Marksmanship hunter was the spec mostly because of trueshot aura that supported melee and range attack power.

Perhaps you wasn’t around back then to know that which is why you responded to me. If you did knew that then you probably have other motives just to get at me. Who knows?

[Kazenia-proudmoore]

Dude the fact you’re going this far tells me you just prefer Survival as the range style and never had any intention of using the melee side of it during the old days. I mean you’re literally talking to a an old survival expert who excelled at it, but that ego of yours is blinding that logic you don’t want to accept.

Please read.

Original game manual. Page 84.

https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/LO0VQ46XB1281555957773363.pdf

Even if you were good at it, you weren’t playing the class the way it was intended.

[Brutalistica-greymane (Brutalistica)]

Please read.

Original game manual. Page 84.

https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/LO0VQ46XB1281555957773363.pdf

Even if you were good at it, you weren’t playing the class the way it was intended.

Imagine being so pent up with anger because someone doesn’t agree to your method and it must be played a certain way. You guys are very bland.

You’re right they did, from Classic to Wrath survival was the spec with all the melee enhancing traits. That was taken away from us in Cata. So they’re simply restoring survival to it’s original glory.

I didn’t like what Wotlk did to their melee damage. They nerfed it by 90%.

[Hellasha-alleria (Hellasha)]

Survival melee wasn’t very good at all back then, but it existed and I had fun with it. I was bummed when they took most of the abilities away and made survival just another ranged bow spec. I’m glad melee survival has returned and is now more fun then it ever was.

The only ability I miss is wyvern shot. It had some fun uses when used correctly.

[Brutalistica-greymane (Brutalistica)]

If it came to raiding and stuff of course you had to do range, but as for melee damage. Depending on your gear you could crit very high with raptor strike. It really gave other melee classes a problem while casters who were not used to a melee survival confused. If they were to go back into range usually you finish them off there.

BC was my most fun with my survival hunter and getting mongoose enchant on my 2h and dw was a blast.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

He deserves those words… Insulting people left and right just because they have a different opinion.

No matter about what he did or did not do. The comment you posted, while specifically directed at him, if made into reality, would affect everyone, not just him.

Again, there’s nothing wrong with a melee hunter spec, it makes sense in a possibility of a hunter to hunt with a spear.

I agree, hence my suggestions for that 4th spec option, for all this to be over.

Adding a 4th spec to “bring back ranged Survival” would be a balancing nightmare, the difference between Druid is that the 4th spec is a tank, it’s different.

Nightmare? No, it would not. You here assume that this 4th spec introduction would be a special case. And that is incorrect. As, ALL changes which are somehow related to class performance and balancing, requires work to get right, and we haven’t had a single time where it has been perfect from the start, in terms of implementing a new spec or an entire new class to the game.

Talking about introducing a new spec to a class and how it would be a nightmare to balance, is not really an argument that has merit.
As an example, in MoP, they revamped the entire talent-system for all classes.
They gave us an entirely new class(Monk).
They also split the Feral spec(Druid) into two.
And more.

They did all that and a whole lot more, in a single expansion. Was it perfect from the start? No, not even close. But it did not stop them from going through with it then. So why should it now?

Anything that a 4th ranged spec based on old Survival could offer can be implemented in any of the other 2 specs, there’s simply no reason to have 4 dps specs on one class.

Aren’t you guys going about, saying that we should not be advocating for current SV(MSV) to be changed or even removed?

And yet, you have no problem with doing/suggesting the exact same thing in regards to other hunter specs?
What about the players that enjoy BM, or MM? They don’t matter? Would they not mind having major changes made to their specs just to fit a new theme/playstyle in there?

Why is it so important that it’s survival?

Because of the theme, the aesthetics and the specific playstyle it offered. I’m not sure if you have grasped how popular that spec actually was, end of WoD excluded, and we have already explained why.

forget about what the old spec offered, i want to know why do you want another spec instead of fixing and tweaking the existing ones,

Like I said…

It’s precisely because of what we got from old RSV in terms of theme, aesthetics and mechanics, and how they differed from the other specs, it’s because of this that we are asking for RSV to come back.

“Fixing” or “tweaking” BM or MM would not give us the old RSV back.

And again, like you guys remind us in regards to your preferences for MSV. Players who enjoy BM or MM, might not want their specs to be altered/removed.

There’s 13 melee specs and 11 ranged specs. Why does it bother you it’s not 12/12? It’s pretty balanced in my opinion.

You’re forgetting that you have 13 specs focused on melee combat, using a melee weapon(s).

We might have 11 ranged specs in the game. But we only have 2 ranged specs which focus on using ranged weapons. Themes matter. Aesthetics matter. It’s not only about ranged vs. melee as a base model.

I agree with you. 4th spec would fix the problems

Awesome!

but lets be realistic I don’t think Blizzard will ever do that, why?

Fair enough. You don’t think that it will happen.

Now you have said so. What’s the point of repeating that?
We heard you the first time.

The whole point of feedback, is to talk about what we want in the game. If we don’t provide said feedback, then it certainly won’t change to what we want.
If we don’t say that we want a 4th spec option for the class in order to get RSV back, and to avoid for divides such as what has happened for the Hunter class to ever happen again, then who’s to say that we wont end up in a similar situation all over again? Causing the same problems/issues all over again?

And yet MM was one of the least played spec and never got removed so bring me back to my point. Just because MSV is least played means little

You are right in that representation matters for very little when it comes to the devs and how they make their decisions(what they base them on).

They did not remove RSV because it was unpopular.

I bet you forgot during Wotlk is when they nerf survival melee damage by hard. I used to do 10k crits using raptor strike in BC

That part doesn’t really matter as Raptor Strike was THE ONLY melee-based damaging ability we had baseline. Even when RS did good, it wasn’t favorable to only focus on that above ranged attacks.

I know you’re his cheerleader

And you call other people toxic?

If that is how you reply to someone you disagree with…

Yeah and melee had a little play in it especially if you survival, but this talk was already done. You’re just rambling at this point to prove nothing. You can throw in the towel at anytime along with your buddy.

Way to deflect. You’re acting as if SV provided a way for Hunters back then to opt out of having a design focused on ranged combat.

It did not.

All of your arguments along with Bepples and Solric has been nothing, but worthless egotistic arguments.

How are my arguments which are based on us getting a 4th spec option so that we can end…well, these current arguments, equal to me being egotistic?

I’m curious as to know your logic behind that…

You’re right they did, from Classic to Wrath survival was the spec with all the melee enhancing traits. That was taken away from us in Cata. So they’re simply restoring survival to it’s original glory.

They did take those specific talents away yes. But keep in mind that even when those talents existed, even if you picked those talents, it did not make you a melee-hunter. It did not intend for us to abandon/stop using our ranged weapons/abilities in favor of only focusing on melee.

It’s “original glory” as you put it, did not exist.

No. That wasn’t the statistics back then. Marksmanship hunter was the main raiding spec. Beast Mastery and Survival wasn’t too popular. They were used, but if you wanted to get somewhere like get gear and have high dps. Marksmanship hunter was the spec mostly because of trueshot aura that supported melee and range attack power.

Back when?

Check for yourself. Up until they destroyed RSV in late WoD, it was the most popular hunter spec of all.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/sv/pve-stats/classes/hunter

Imagine being so pent up with anger because someone doesn’t agree to your method and it must be played a certain way. You guys are very bland.

You do know that “method of play” does not equal “intent of design”. Just because you chose to play as a melee-fighter back then, does not meant that the design promoted this.

[Hubbleton-eonar]

A melee spec is fine. Its not unpopular because no one wants to play a melee hunter, its unpopular because it’s a bad spec in both performance and playstyle.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Its not unpopular because no one wants to play a melee hunter, its unpopular because it’s a bad spec in both performance

It’s not underperforming no.

It’s currently right on par with both BM and MM.

and playstyle

Melee, is the same as playstyle(or part of it).

Anyone who does not like a playstyle which involves melee combat, will stay away from a spec such as MSV.

[Hubbleton-eonar]

not underperforming no.

It’s currently right on par with both BM and MM.

Sure but raid bosses and patchwerk sims are no longer the most important things in wow. Many people who raid also do m+, and many people only do m+. And guess what? Survival is garbage dps in m+.

So it’s not going to be a popular spec compared to other specs that perform well in both.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

And guess what? Survival is garbage dps in m+.

What is your definition of “garbage” ?

Besides, if you think that MSV’s current lack of representation(in perspective), is because it’s not the top performer in M+…think again.

But hey, if you can link some source that shows how bad MSV is in M+ along with some records that show how underrepresented it is in M+ compared to other specs, then sure. I would agree with you then.
Provided that it’s so far behind the other specs that it would have a greater impact on the class as a whole.