I dunno why you think that Velves have negative stigmas (at least out of game) but those other two can subvert negative stigmas at any time by behaving better. It doesn’t require an elaborate Lightbound scheme that would just so happen to coincidentally be something that people you don’t like would object to.
1 Like
Because everyone and their mom is expecting them to give into the void at any moment and go crazy. And all it will take is one bad day, or one dead son, to turn Alleria into a monstrous problem of epic proportions. Or at least that’s the common expectation. Like, they’re toying with the Void. The Visions literally reinforced the nightmare of what people expect of them. And they are surrounded by Light revering cultures that really should have issues with them; and should be making judgements. There are stigma there they have yet to overcome.
You’re right about the different situations between Nightborne and Mag’har. Yet my point about Sylvanas’ attempted magic enslavement of Derek compared to Lightbinding - and that being glossed over in the story - is valid.
2 Likes
Yeah, its weird. But, on the other hand, Geya’rah’s dialogue after Sylvie ousted herself seemed to imply she gave it a pass because she saw Sylvie as someone who was willing to do anything to save her people. And that both such a pass, and putting blind faith in a leader, was not a wise decision on her part. Its small, but its growth from her. Which gives me a little hope that if given the opportunity to interact with the MU Draenei … she’ll be able to learn from her mistakes about pre-judging them as well.
Which in a small way is why IN such a hypothetical Light Cosmology expac (especially while Turalyon is Bound), I want Fareeya to see massive development. It would certainly be nice to see a Lightforged Draenei leader get fleshed out within the Lightforged Draenei. And in doing so, it can highlight the differences between those Forged by the Light, and those Bound to and by it. For everyone to see, including Geya’rah.
4 Likes
The Mag’har and the Forsaken aren’t surrounded by Light-revering cultures though. The presence of antagonistic Light-wielding enemies is completely incidental to developing either.
While that sounds good, it’s still not right that Geya’rah gives Sylvanas a pass for doing something that she considered casus belli when Yrel did it, especially since “do anything to save my people” can also apply to Yrel’s reasoning (for a broader definition of “my people”).
1 Like
I’m in favor of villain batting Turalyon. The team that gets villain batted tends to get a lot of resources dumped into giving them big juicy CGI cinematics, commissioned art, and plenty of on screen time being victorious. If that means Turalyon becomes a raid boss that’s an easy price to pay. One less human character to soak up all the spotlight on the Alliance side.
4 Likes
Why not make Tyrande and Malfurion villains then? Then the Night Elves get ALL the development!
Turalyon is no problem, because he ´s a human in a Draenei faction and not a human leading a humanfaction, so no worry of him.
Anduin and Jaina are the one who sack the entire Narrative.
1 Like
Let’s bargain?
Did you even play through their allied race questline? They’re literally being converted and / or wiped out by the Lightbound, who are basically the Scarlet Onslaught on steroids, fanatical followers of the Light…
I want T’PAARTOS to get development too, it would be nice to have him be the “Gamon” of the Siege of Stormwind raid…
“I, T’PAARTOS, WILL SAVE US… T’PAARTOS!”
1 Like
Blame it on bad writing, which BFA was chock-full of…
1 Like
It’s Yrel herself who refers to Gromm as her friend. He clearely redeemed himself in her eyes in those 30 years.
I too would have liked to have experienced that story in game! I’d have totally been down to see finally see Orcs and Draenei coexisting on Draenor as they had for centuries. To see them working together to fight the Iron Hord/Legion. To see Gromm redeeming himself in Yrel’s eyes. See the arrival of the Naaru and how they eventually turned Yrel against the Mag’har and the start of the Lightbound Crusade.
Well Illidan’s primary opposition to whatever Xe’ra was doing to him was the fact that it wasn’t just going to give him awesome Light powers, but was going to change who he was on a fundamental level. The whole, “I am my scars” thing wasn’t talking literally about cuts and bruises, but him not wanting to lose the many (painful) experiences that had shaped him as a person. And we already know the Light and Naaru can grant visions.
If they can force people forget what they want them to forget and grant them visions of what they want you to see, then yeah, they can control minds. There are many mind influencing Holy/Light spells, particularly those that remove certain emotions/bolster others going back to even the franchise’s beginning, where Clerics had " the ability to cloud the perceptions of others so that they do not recognize the physical existence of the caster".
Which isn’t to say that Yrel is being mind control. She could simply be tricked/mistaken. Or she could be acting with 100% knowledge and agency. But being under supernatural influence as a result of having her body/mind altered by Lightbinding/forging or purposefully mislead/manipulated by would be an out.
I don’t think Yrel was the best candidate either. I think Blizzard would have been better off using someone who actually lives on Azeroth, who is an established figure in the Church of the Holy Light, and isn’t acting under the influence of some big bad supernatural force. You know, give the Alliance and Light as practiced on Azeroth some more nuance.
I’m pretty sure that the decision to go with Yrel–who isn’t even a member of the Alliance and exists in a alternate universe–and possibly Turalyon–who hasn’t been a member of the Alliance for decades and has spent that time hanging out in parallel universes–is due to Blizzard’s general tendency over the years to distance the Alliance and its major characters as much as possible from anything that would tarnish their image as being squeaky clean/always on the right side/justified at all times.
But MU Xe’ra definitely was a villain for the short period she appeared on screen. Deciding that you can unilaterally make the decision to transmogrify people without their consent is not okay and the narrative clearly doesn’t side with her. Just because you also happen to be fighting the bad guys, it doesn’t automatically justify bad things you do or even make you a good guy by default.
actually yes but i will say this… Who cares the more they write the more gets destroyed.
As for me…
Grom fighting the Legion with us seems less “heroism” and more “cleaning up a mess he helped make”, and it doesn’t address HIS prior crimes with the Iron Horde. How did Grom pay for his crimes? He wasn’t imprisoned, executed or even exiled or banned from leadership.
It would’ve been good to see what happened after WoD, but instead the narrative bends over backwards to villain bat the Draenei by ignoring parts of the story because the writers want to push a “fanaticism” story, and they forgot a cardinal rule of writing; “show, don’t tell.” I agree completely that Yrel wasn’t a good choice for antagonist status.
Illidan only assumed Lightforging would change who he was as a person, though I’ll grant he was ignorant of the Light, and therefore assumed the worst. When Illidan said “I am my scars”, apart from it being edgelord cringe, I was reminded of Kung Fu Panda 2, when Po responded to the villain who also wouldn’t let go of his scars. “Scars fade… you should (Shen). You’ve got to let go of that stuff in the past because it just doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is what you choose to be now.” Where can the naaru or the Light force people to forget things? Clouding perceptions isn’t the same as removing memories.
Blizz themselves even said the intention with Xe’ra was to go the “morally grey” route, raise the question of whether we think the naaru are good. While they succeeded, they never made her a villain. You saying she was a villain is as valid as me saying she wasn’t. And I say MU Xe’ra was no villain despite what certain people – most of them edgelords - say.
Just because a hero does something bad or forces a permanent change on someone else doesn’t automatically make them a villain (eg; in Avatar the Last Airbender, Aang transmogrified Ozai by taking away Ozai’s firebending power/magic. In Star Wars, Obi-Wan left Maul and Anakin with crippling, permanent injuries and scars. Did that make Aang or Obi-Wan villains?).
1 Like
Grom continued fighting them and doing other stuff over the next 30 years to the point where Yrel began to refer to him as a friend. No, it doesn’t seem he was imprisoned, exiled or banned from leadership, so whatever he did must’ve been pretty good from her point of view.
But if your biggest concern really is that they didn’t take the time to really explore the concept of zealotry in the Light and the concept of a Light based antagonist, then that’s all the more reason to make it into an actual expansion. An actual Tyranny of the Light expansion would provide the opportunity to really explore what’s happened to Yrel. What really happened on Draenor. Why she’s doing what she’s doing. And the fact that such a story would play out over an expansion would mean that any other Light based characters who join her would have space for deeper exploration in their own right.
It’d be Blizzard’s chance to not just tell us that the Light isn’t all perfect, but an opportunity to actually show it.
…
Your comparisons to various othee characters ignores how Xe'ra/Yrel's approach is different.
Po never forced anything on Lord Shen. He encouraged Lord Shen to try and work past his trauma, but he didn’t grab him and force any kind of change on his very person.
Aang did not transmogrify Ozai and “purify his mind/soul”, purge him of harmful scars or any such thing. He took away his firebending and stopped there. The later sequel not only raises serious ethical concerns about the nature of Spiritbending, especially on a mass scale, but also begins to question the very concept of whether the Avatar a a ‘force for good’ is really good.
Obi Wan didn’t use the force to “cleanse” Darth Maul either. The Star Wars narrative makes it abundantly clear that the Jedi and the Jedi teachings were flawed, often contradictory. Obi Wan violated his own Jedi teachings, as the Force is to be used for knowledge and defense. Never attack. He lies to Luke-repetedly, and gives him all kinds of bad advice.
Luke determining that the best way to defeat Vader/Emperor is to throw DOWN his weapon and trust that his father will make the right choice is why he’s supposed to be better Jedi than those that came before. It’s also why Luke at the end of the Last Jedi used his abilities to defend people non-violently and not go on a lightsaber murder spree.
Another important distinction is that all of the above were acting in self defense in the moment against people who were actively trying to kill them/others. They weren’t going around looking for people to convert/conquer.
Po, Aang, and Obi Wan would be very different characters had they strolled in 30 years after the events of a conflict, announced that they were converting everyone/their friends to the cause and using their magic to forcefully transform the bod/mind/soul of others to serve as their tools without their consent–they’d be right to be presented as villains. Afterall, it wouldn’t have made them much different from what the bad guys were doing.
…
That Blizzard has openly acknowledged that Xe’ra exists to show us the darker side of the Naaru and make us question whether or not Naaru are all good is obviously setting her up to be the villainous exception. I think they’re going to do this, not just because of what she tried to do to Illidan, but what she’s done on Draenor, and the fact that we’ve been presented with no real positive interactions with her.
In Legion and BfA, Bolvar and the Knights of the Ebon Blade were stealing corpses and raising people as undead Death Knights to serve them. Does that make the Ebon Blade villains? The story sure doesn’t treat it that way. Rules for the naaru, but not the Ebon Blade?
It’s bad writing that Yrel forgave Grom and we see no hint of what Grom did to atone. “Show, don’t tell” is a key part of writing. I think Blizz failed to implement logical consequences because some writer got the whim that they wanted the Draenei to be fanatical bad guys.
It’d take good writing to explore that, but Blizzard’s done the writing equivalent of flipping a switch from “good” to “evil” and ignoring the logical consequences for actions and new “bad guys” better qualities. It’d be like if Blizzard suddenly had a time skip where Thrall joined the Burning Legion and the Horde wants to destroy the universe.
You assume that Lightforging transforms mind and soul too, but have no evidence of that. Lightforged individuals have their own approaches, Turalyon and Lothraxion disagreed with Xe’ra in person when she was alive, something brainwashed individuals wouldn’t do. Ergo Lightforging isn’t brainwashing, that’s just edgelord fan theory at this point.
You can’t blame one version of a character for another. MU Xe’ra isn’t to blame for AU Xe’ra’s actions, and AU Xe’ra isn’t to blame for MU Xe’ra’s actions; just like how MU Grom isn’t to blame for the Iron Horde and AU Grom isn’t to blame for drinking Mannoroth’s blood. There were positive interactions with Xe’ra (the quest chain to free Illidan’s soul in Legion… in hindsight that makes Illidan look quite ungrateful for killing her), you just don’t remember them because what she did to Illidan triggered you. She might not even be the AU Light Mother for all we know.
I brought up Aang and Obi-Wan as examples of heroes who forced permanent transitions onto others but were still heroes despite that. Po’s quote was brought up as a rebuttal to Illidan’s edgelord “I am my scars” statement.
1 Like
Yes. We had an entire expansion featuring the Lich King and Death Knights as villains. The bulk of the Ebon Blade’s members were villains-- villains who apparently were able to dial back the forcibly raising friendlies/world conquering crusade to the point where they’ve been allowed to be treated as anti-heroes/anti-villains. So yeah. They’ve gone from villains to skirting the line by occasionally engaging in some pretty obviously villainous behavior.
And if there were another expansion in which they or some of their members were villains, I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
I also agree that Blizzard should have shown us how Grom atoned in Yrel’s eyes to the point where she called him friend. There’s definitely potential for a fascinating story there. In fact, an entire expansion where they can go into more detail about Grom/Yrel’s transformation from the people we saw in WoD to the people they became in BfA she and a general exploration of how a follower of the Light can become a dangerous fanatic would be a great.
And again, ignoring the fact that a great many Light based abilities can indeed influence the perceptions/mind/soul, Xe’ra and Ilidain’s entire conversation where she tries to forcibly change him makes it clear that if he goes along, he will have to give up who he is and his destiny in exchange for service to the Light. It’s clearly not something as so simple and straightforward as being able to puppet people on a strong, but it does connect you to the Light. And Turalyon definately had a connection to Xe’ra that led him to decide to imprison his own wife. The closest we get to a positive interactions we have with Xe’ra are here spouting exposition at us while we find Illidan for her, which she reveals to just be part of her plot to continue down the path she’s set. Whether we agree or not.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Xe%27ra
If a character, across every alternate reality we see them, is up to different kinds of shady/villainous stuff, that establishes a track record. AU Grom isn’t personally to blame for MU’s Grom’s misdeeds and vice versca, but looking at both Groms across multiple timelines establishes a pattern. If a 3rd Gromm Hellscream were to show up in WoW, would you honestly be surprised if he was the head of an invasion force intending to conquer Azeroth-only to turn coat at some point?
Your Aang, Po, and Obi-Wan comparisons were basically trying to justify Xe’ra’s broader actions and characterization/discredit those who disagree, while completely ignoring the actual details or context in which any of this stuff went down and ignoring other things the villains do that make them actually villainous.
4 Likes
The Ebon Blade were villains during the Death Knight starter quest, but not after. Also, the Death Knigths were forcibly raising friendlies after Wrath; the new Four Horsemen in “Legion” and the allied race Death Knights in BfA - you think the Zandalari, Mag’har or Lightforged Draenei wanted to become Death Knights?
Why are the Ebon Blade only “skirting the line of villainy” while doing this to several people for over a year, but Xe’ra automatically gets the villain label for attempting to do this to one person? You have a double standard.
(on that note, there is a difference between “attempted murder” and “murder” in a court of law)
What Light abilities effect a person’s mind and soul? Name them.
Xe’ra wanted to kill Alleria for lying to her about using the Void, but Turalyon persuaded Xe’ra not to. If what you said was true, he would’ve fallen into lockstep with the naaru and killed Alleria… but he didn’t. Turalyon shouldn’t get the villain bat and that Xe’ra wasn’t a villain; for all her faults, Xe’ra - even AU Xe’ra if she’s the Lightbound leader - was a sweetheart compared to MU Garrosh, Lord Godfrey, Gul’dan, Azshara, Sargeras, Zovaal, N’Zoth…
You’re basically trying to demonize a character you don’t like, I strongly suspect - lionize a character you do like (Illidan), all while ignoring their positive qualities, context and the writers avowed intentions.
2 Likes