I would be okay with Anduin expressing this if Turaylon and Velen fail.
However, Anduin being under the tutelage of Velen (who may have changed his philosophy) and his tendency to use Shadow magic makes me think he would be pro-balance.
Playing Alliance sufficiently to have a least a basic idea of who Turalyon is and what his personality is like should be a pre-requisite for having an opinion on his future arc because a lot of people itt aren’t actually even talking about Turalyon, they’re talking about a completely different character that they then call “Turalyon”
Like, read Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal folks, otherwise you’re acting like you’re an expert on Bilbo Baggins even though you’ve never read The Hobbit.
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That’s your response? A “no, you!” reply?
There’s a difference between adding layers of morality - like you say - to a higher power or group and villain-batting it - like Blizzard seems to be. Blizzard seems to be heading towards the latter. They have a track record of screwing up “morally grey” with more misses than hits. If they didn’t want people to see their religious ideals on something, maybe they should’ve thought of that when lifting from real-world religious ideals.
When did I condemn Orcish spirit/elemental worship? I just said they don’t care about morality either in response to people saying the Light doesn’t. My point is Blizzard shouldn’t swing from “Light good” to “Light bad”, especially when they need to make ham-fisted retcons to do so.
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I never said anything about Alleria getting villain batted. I don’t want that.
If anything I want Alleria to be redeemed, either being free of the Void’s whispers but keeping the powers or giving up the Void entirely. I’d also be happy to see Turalyon help her there; she doesn’t have to take up the Light, but to show the strength of their relationship.
Or, or, bare with me here. Because Light has always been shown to be more about conviction than outright benevolent intent, it allows for different ideologies to form and even clash within that Cosmology. A One True Path, but what that is not going to be the same for everyone. And when different One True Paths come into contact, they can come into conflict. Which is all we’re suggesting here with a “Shades of the Light” Expac. Especially since now it is apparent that Naaru aren’t a monolith, or a hive mind, and can very and have different practices in their own duties to the Light.
So rather than outright villain batting, lets throw a little Ner’zhul into the mix. The Light Mother (“A” Being of the Light Cosmology, but not he only one) is the Sargaras of this story. Yrel? Having her prophetic visions without training exploited against her to envision a grand crusade is our KJ. And finally Turalyon, our Ner’zhul. A man who cares deeply for the well being of his people, having his Faith exploited against him to cause him do something horrible. Only to realize the truth too late, and lets say … gets Bound on the Light in response. All you really need is a Bladewind Clan Incident to serve as a catalyst.
The Lightbound show up as friends while all the Peaceniks/PCs are locked away. Then Velen or Faol get too close to their true nature, and are killed. Having their deaths pinned on the Horde, reinforcing expectations of us (especially the AU Mag’har and Forsaken). Pushing Turalyon, now with enough power to steamroll the Horde, to act. The Alliance gets some massive hits in, and we PCs and Peaceniks get back just as the Horde is on its breaking point. But things are getting REALLY shifty with the Alliance’s new Ally. With Turalyon realizing his mistake at some point and getting “bound” when he tries to turn.
Then to make the story more compelling, two races from both Factions who need TLC get propped up to play central roles. The AU Mag’har and the Forsaken for the Horde. The VElves and Lightforged Draenei (and Draenei) for the Alliance. With the prior 3 races getting chances to subvert expectations of them, showing their grit and capacity for heroism. While the latter gets the far more interesting task of ideological battle. Between those FORGED by the Light, and those BOUND by it. With Geya’rah, Voss, Alleria, and Captain Fareeya all seeing massive plot relevance and development as the leaders of those groups.
EDIT: And all this EVEN leaves open the options and outs to save Turalyon, Yrel, and perhaps even a very Light Tortured and Bound by his own once victims AU Grom for us Hordies down the road.
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“Subverting expectations” should not be an end in itself. A narrative turn being unexpected doesn’t make it good. In fact, unless it’s done masterfully, it’s almost always frustrating instead.
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What you’re suggesting sounds good for the most part. I just don’t think Blizzard will go that route, they seem set on one-dimensional “muh fanaticism”; That’s a major part of my problem with that whole idea.
Naaru having disagreements and some scheming Light followers is a fine idea. While there needs to be distinction between the innocent and the guilty, those among the AU Mag’har responsible for the Iron Horde – especially AU Grom - getting off scot-free for their crimes and comparing AU Light Mother to Sargeras is not. Regarding the latter, “Rule the universe” vs “destroy the universe” are very different things, plus if the AU Light Mother is AU Xe’ra, she lacks Sargeras’ sadism and environmental damage.
I’d like to see a division. Innocent AU Mag’har spared, Iron Horde Mag’har including AU Grom – especially AU Grom – get punished. It’d also take quite a bit of plot development to redeem Geya’rah imo.
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Its not an end of itself. Its showing that the negative expectations of these races don’t need to be reinforced. And that members of these groups with such dire stigma attached to them do have the capacity and grit to be heroic. Especially in the right situation. And as ALL 3 of these groups: The AU Mag’har, Forsaken, and VElves, would be on the receiving end of a Light Cosmology Expac … thats a good environment for it.
The alternative of course is to just to reinforce the negative expectations. Which I’m certain MHPs would love. They revel in that sort of by-default Moral Supremacy. But on a writing level, its nothing but boring to me. ANY Cosmological Force in excess, or under the wrong ideology, should have a negative result. This applies to Life; Death; Void; Order; and Fel. And in a setting where that ONE Cosmological force is not arbitrarily the exception, and its practitioners are not expected to be infallible Mary Sues, that should also mean Light.
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Exactly. That’s one of the major reasons Shamalayn got a lot of scorn. Plus, given what’s popular in a lot of 21st century writing, having the religious extremists being revealed as the ones who are in the right would be subverting expectations now.
Redeem her for what? A single comment after she witnessed what was left of her world and people stolen from her? By a race of Draenei who were once her friends and teachers? For not siding against the Warchief she just swore loyalty to, and risk her refugee people, on two men she never met or knew? Could you apply more SINS of the RACE to her if you try? She’s not of the Generation of the Iron Horde. Hell, based on her situation and temperament, she’s likely quite a bit younger than Thrall. She is also the Daughter of the Frostwolves. She in no way holds the sins of the Iron Horde, unless “not converting when demanded to” condemns her to them?
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It’s hard to consider your posts to be in good faith when they are dripping with this kind of naked contempt for other players. It gives the impression that your primary goal is less about making a story everyone can enjoy and more about owning your forum enemies.
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I wasn’t applying sins of the race to Geya’rah. I see her as a racist, vengeful and hypocritical individual.
“Yrel wants to convert my people by force? Evil Yrel! Evil Light!” “Sylvanas tries to convert someone by force and kills those who try to free him? Good. She’s a strong Warchief.” See the double standard? I wanted to see someone compare Sylvanas to Yrel to Geya’rah’s face after that.
Plus Geya’rah’s turn against Sylvanas was ham-fisted. No reflection, no escapes or calling out, just suddenly “Sylvanas was selfish. We good now.” after Geya’rah had been one of her staunch supporters. It’d be fine if Sylvanas was manipulating Geya’rah, but we get no hint of that.
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For a single comment she uttered right after witnessing her world and what remains of her people stolen away from her? By a race of Light Worshipping Draenei who she admitted were once her friends and teachers? And who, as far as we know now, killed her father … and are currently attacking her mother (as AU Draka’s garrison in AU Nagrand was the last holdouts other than Grom’s base in Gorgrond). Of COURSE she’s going to be twitchy at the prospect of LIGHT Worshipping Draenei being on the planet she just showed up on. And she’s shown NO racist comments since then. She also has shown several times (despite her lack of development) she can learn from her own and others mistakes. And cares DEEPLY for the well being of her own people.
In short, you’re stance on her comes off more as “I have to find reasons to hate her, because I like Yrel, and thus what Geya’rah is telling us about her HAS to be wrong”. Because like ALL Light Practitioners in this game, you are DEEPLY opposed to any of them not being by default infallibly moral and benevolent.
If this specific group is so threatened by the idea that PC races with negative expectations and stigma attached to them are allowed to subvert them, that they make the argument “that subverting expectations should not be an end in itself” … then I don’t really care. These groups should be allowed a chance to prove themselves, and I genuinely do find the idea of Light as an antagonist (or dare I say, villain, within certain factions) compelling. Especially if it creates the environment to A: Allow these races who need chances to prove their capacity for heroism to be heroic; and B: Allow those competing Light ideologies to clash against their darker counterparts.
You’re being disingenuous. It wasn’t just a single comment from Geya’rah, as I explained in the previous reply. Apparently Geya’rah doesn’t mind Sylvanas doing forced conversion (Derek Proudmoore) but got up in arms when Yrel was doing it.
Yrel’s actions with the Lightbound were after experiencing a death world full of xenomorph plant people, being attacked by a British Empire knockoff of Orc racial supremacists who killed her sister and enslaved her, an equally bad Ogre empire and more… Of course it wouldn’t take much to make Yrel go all “Lux Vult!” to bring order after that. If Geya’rah’s experience with the Lightbound can justify her feelings, why can the actions of the Iron Horde justify Yrel’s? See the double standard?
Sylvanas had Zelling executed and Baine arrested for freeing Derek. Geya’rah was one of the only two Horde leaders to support Sylvanas for this. One rule for Sylvanas, another for Yrel.
In short your stance comes off as “Geya’rah gets a pass because she’s Horde.” I’m not opposed to bad Light practitioners; even manipulated by demons the Scarlet Crusade still made wrong choices (I have no problems with, for example, Sally Whitemane or good ol’ Arthas).
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I’m not saying they DO invalidate Yrel’s feelings. She’s perfectly valid in them. I’m saying YREL’S don’t invalidate Geya’rah’s. And genuinely, I don’t mind Geya’rah’s siding with Sylvanas as much as she did in BfA, because on many other occasions its very clear she had very little understanding of what was going on. Hell, her Visions scenario showed a woman so desperate to keep her head above water she didn’t really know what to do with herself but fight blindly on. Her not understanding the cultural gravity of Derek, or not siding for Saurfang or Thrall she never once met … did not bother me that much.
These groups don’t actually exist and are thus incapable of “proving themselves.” They will do or not do things entirely arbitrarily and thus they don’t actually need any specific villain or antagonist in order to do so; they could prove themselves against the Void Lords or the Burning Legion or any other villain faction that already exists and it would have the same effect.
That’s a fair point that Geya’rah doesn’t know who Derek is or who Thrall and Saurfang are.
But she does know that Sylvanas is using a supernatural power to try and force Derek to serve her against his will (Derek could still talk while bound, and Baine explained why he freed Derek); given her experience with the Lightbound, you’d think that’d set off warning bells in Geya’rah, but apparently it didn’t.
Addendum: The Nightborne are in a similar boat to Geya’rah being inexperienced, but they saw parallels between Sylvanas and Elisande with the Derek situation.
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Lordaeron also does not exist. And thus it will be held or not held by whatever or whoever the story demands holds it. I wonder, why is it you apply such massive double standards to anything in this game you aren’t emotionally invested in? And the reason I suggested that that an Antagonistic Light Cosmology expac is a good environment for the AU Mag’har, Forsaken, and VElves to subvert some negative stigmas … is because all 3 groups naturally find relevance with such an enemy. Just as the Azerothian brand Light Practitioners (especially the Lightforged Draenei) would find relevance.
The Nightborne are also from Azeroth, are not refugees out of time and space, and have had time to both recover AND start getting to know their neighbors since Legion. They’re still a bit of a fish out of water, but not nearly to the extreme that the AU Mag’har are within BfA. Like, truly, even with how bad a shape the Forsaken are left in right now … I genuinely don’t think there is a group worse off than the AU Mag’har situationally in the Horde right now. They may hold a position on this new council, but functionally both they and Geya’rah are pretty helpless. And hyper dependent on the Horde.