The fact that the Ebon Blade knew what they were doing was objectively horrible but were willing to shoulder the burden of being monsters for the sake of the greater good is one of the best things about them. None of that “oh, what we’re doing is actually GOOD because reasons” preening.
It’s still a double standard (group who does it to multiple people vs an unsuccessful attempt to do it to one person). So it’s okay to do bad things if they acknowledge they’re bad?
There’s a phenomenon in parts of the WoW fandom where they base the moral standing of the character on whether they like them (just look at the Sylvanas fandom), hence how Sylvanas is “the hero we need” but Xe’ra’s “eeeeeevul!” despite the latter having a much shorter list of crimes than the former.
I think the Ebon Blade are one of the better written parts of WoW because their character development is consistent and they face consequences for their actions (eg; getting on the dragons bad side after the class mount quest chain). Turalyon becoming a bad guy would be a horrible idea.
You keep leaving out the fact that AU Xe’ra did all the conquering/killing stuff stuff too. It’s all that, plus the general conquering/killing that made both her and the pre-Wrath Ebon Blade members villains.
The members of the post-wrath Ebon Blade are anti-heroes at best. Anti-villains to straight up villain protagonists at worst. They were already villains before and continue to do the occasional villainous act. Should they get killed in the process of forcibly converting people and their AU versions show up and start conquering/slaughtering again, they’ll definitely firmly be in the villain category again.
Well in the original RTS, the Cleric’s can make themselves invisible by using their ability to “cloud the perceptions of others so that they do not recognize the physical existence of the caster”.
Devotion Aura of Paladins in WC3 is described as “The mere presence of a powerful paladin can instill great courage and inner strength in those around them. This powerful, spiritual surge actually increases the defensive capabilities of those gathered near the paladin,” but that could just be poetic.
In WoW itself, the Priests abilities Fear Ward and the removed Symbol of Hope, are Holy school spells explicitly described as making someone fearless/resistant to fear and the Paladin keeps Devotion Aura while adding Emancipate, which “unshackles the spirit”, the deleted “Evil is a Point of View” talent that let you turn Humanoids/Beasts as if they were Demons.
A player noticed that along with the plethora of Shadow spells that explicitly included the term “mind”, Priests might be psychics, causing a Dev to reply with the following…“The Light is often said to bring about feelings of positive emotion— hope, courage, comfort— and the like. Shadow abilities are just the opposite, able to impart feelings like despair, doubt, and panic. In a poetic sense, it can be said that the emotions which the Light brings about come from the “heart,” whereas the emotions manipulated by shadow are often based on survival logic, and therefore affect the “mind.” That said, priests and their abilities are not necessarily always psychic or telepathic in nature.”
The Light also apparently has some empathic abilities, allowing one to peer into someone’s mind/soul and see if they’re lying, as happened in Of Blood and Honor (book), Ashbringer (comics), Dark Riders (comics), while in the Dust to Dust and Ashes to Ashes (books), it was able to allow individuals to form empathic links.
Naaru are innate telepaths/empaths and have even more power with the Light. In A Thousand Year War, when Xe’ra Lightforges Turalyon, the details are vague, but Alleria is beside him and even she experiences a vivid extra-sensory (possibly false) experience wherein she goes to Stormwind, sees her son, shares his emotions, etc. When she comes out of the experience, Turalyon has been Lightforged and it seems he underwent his own experience as well.
Turalyon didn’t persuade Xe’ra to do anything. Alleria came before Xe’ra after being exposed to the Void, Xe’ra chided her, and Turalyon–fearing what Xe’ra might do-- pleaded for mercy before any sentence was was actually given. “Xe’ra’s merciless regard examined his (Turalyon’s) soul”, and only then did she sentence his loving wife of decades to imprisonment for life- a verdict which he did not protest.
Xe’ra held the power throughout the whole exchange. Nobody defied her will. Only pleaded mercy in the face of an unknown punishment.
But yeah, Xe’ra’s definitely better than all those other villains in the sense that she’s more high minded type and less concerned with petty matters or personal glory. As if it hasn’t been made obvious, the danger she presents is that of a person who is so convinced of their own righteousness, that they circle right back around into doing terrible things.
And you don’t see me over here trying to argue that MU Garrosh, Lord Godfrey, Gul’dan, Azshara, Sargeras, Zovaal, N’Zoth and all the stuff they did were “good actually”. Even though all of them could have just as easily delivered some speech about how they actually were all doing it all for the greater good in their own fights against the Void and/or Legion.
No, this is not about me hating Xe’ra as a character. I don’t hate her. I think she’s pretty interesting, actually. As mentioned before, her lack of pettiness and her righteous resolve are an interesting take as far as WoW antagonists have gone. Also she gives the Light and the Naaru some more nuance. I don’t want her to just be swept under the rug and forgotten about. I want to see her in the story again doing the stuff she did in Legion and BfA and have it confronted.
And if/when they do that story, I totally expect her to be challenged by other Light themed characters like Anduin and Velen; other characters that I do rather like.
I’m definitively not a fan of Illidan’s character. The immortal Night Elf half demon who is blind but sees magically and dual wields dual bladed swords (quad blades?), and struts around shirtless with tribal tattoos all over his body that glow when he uses his demon powers. He reads like a bad fanfic character. His hammy delivery also–for me–is too much even for WoW’s usual level of melodrama. I too burst into laughter at the “I AM Y SCARS!” line. I don’t give him a pass and try to act like he wasn’t a villain in past appearances either, even if he does suddenly show up in Legion as an anti-hero.
It’s just that I can recognize situations in a work where one character is meant to be sympathetic/heroic/right and the other is being portrayed as unsympathetic/villainous/wrong.
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For the arg about the Ebon blade arc, afair from doing DK in Legion, the class hall quest definitely seems to take the side that going for Light’s Hope was going too far even for the resident anti-villains in the four horsemen arc.
Elves don’t really seem to do formal marriage outside of Knaak’s terrible Rhonin books so having kids together and still being a couple is about as good as the full ceremony tbh.
Hearing that during Legion made me feel weird, people really hated “Hush, Tyrande” for having Malfurion having this nasty dudebro moment at Tyrande, and this is, like, even worse but I hardly ever saw it get brought up.
I don’t think he should be villain-batted for it but at least, I feel kinda gross with their relationship being treated as this big romantic thing because he fully accepted her imprisonment for iirc centuries since it was an implied compromise over execution. It just makes her feel weirdly codependent; tbh every Windrunner sister has been getting the “in a codependent relationship with a human that happens to be a writer’s pet character” bat.
I already explained why a character isn’t responsible for the actions of an AU counterpart, so you can’t blame MU Xe’ra for AU Xe’ra’s actions (for the sake of argument, I’ll say Yrel’s Lightbound answer to AU Xe’ra). You’re still carrying out a double standard; despite the “occasional villainous act”, the Ebon Blade aren’t locked in as villains for you, but Xe’ra is locked in as a villain after ONE unsuccessful action and the actions of someone else using the “alternate universe counterpart” excuse. Rules for thee (Xe’ra), but not for me (the Ebon Blade).
You did show Light abilities that can effect the mind, so you were right about that. There’s a caveat, though. The dev you quoted said that the Light effects emotions that come from the heart… which undermines, if not debunks, the idea that you can mind control people with the Light or Lightforging (and what certain fans call “Lightbinding”). Which RTS has clerics? I’ve played two of the Warcraft RTS games (3 if you count the Frozen Throne expansion) and I haven’t seen clerics, just priests and paladins.
Xe’ra explicitly threatened to kill Alleria if she used the Void (perhaps disproportionate, but it was Xe’ra’s ship, so its her rules). Alleria said she wouldn’t use the Void… then used the Void (lying to, or breaking her promise to, Xe’ra – even conceding that the punishment didn’t fit the crime, Xe’ra had valid reason to be angry with Alleria). When Xe’ra showed up to carry out her initial threat, Turalyon asked Xe’ra to show mercy, pleaded his case (Lothraxion chipped in as well), then Xe’ra examined Turalyon and imprisoned Alleria; Turalyon protested killing her. Xe’ra also had a moment of doubt after Turalyon’s protest.
It sounded like you hated Xe’ra given you slapped the villain label on her while not also applying it to characters who’ve done worse (plus she was a hardliner, but not sadistic). Our PCs are better candidates for the villain label than Xe’ra, how many people have we mind-controlled in quests or PVP? Apart from saying heroes can be wrong at times, villains can be right at times and sympathetic ≠ heroic and unsympathetic ≠ villain, I agree with you about Velen, Anduin and Illidan. If all this can be said of a Light hardliner like Xe’ra, it’s even more reason why villain-batting Turalyon is a bad idea.
Plus, sometimes writers fail to make the distinction between giving a character a sympathetic backstory and actually making them sympathetic.
I agree with everything you said except the part about Turalyon and Alleria’s relationship. While it can be said the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, how does allowing a loved one to be punished for committing a crime mean you don’t love them? Does that mean irl couples shouldn’t let their partners go to jail for committing crimes?
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I mean, couples still visit each other in jail and the way the relationship is often framed, I’d expect them to at least be ride or die for each other, at least to be at the level of the age-worthy romance they seem to depict them as, as is it just feels a bit one-sided to me. Maybe I’m just somewhat cynical about it because it’s been the basic writer MO with a lot of romantic pairings, esp so with human/elf pairs.
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What’s your assessment of Turalyon and Alleria’s relationship?
It feels vaguely codependent, but it’s not like they (she in particular) have a ton of screentime.
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Clerics were the Human faction’s religious units in Warcraft 1. Warcraft II replaced them with Paladins. Warcraft III brought them back in the form of Priests, along with Paladins and the first explicit mentions of the Church of the Holy Light.
Also, Xe'ra never explicitly threatens Alleria with death. Alleria hears tale of a Locus-Walker, a master of the Void who used it to fight the Legion, and begins trying to use her void powers, only to receive a telepathic message from Xe'ra telling her that the Light and Void cannot work together. There is not threat of death. Turalyon didn't talk Xe'ra down from a death sentence.
[quote]
[i]Understand this well, Alleria Windrunner. The Light does not treat with the Void. There is no alliance to be made with the Shadow. It seeks to destroy or enslave every soul in this universe. It wants to consume everything.[/i.]
…
[i][That war began before time itself. Make no mistake, Alleria: if you pursue contact with the
Void, your destiny will fall into ruin. You will lose Turalyon. You will lose Arator. You will lose
Silvermoon, Azeroth, and everything else you hold dear. The Light and the Shadow cannot
exist together. You already know how to strike down the Void. That is all you need to know./i]
At best, that’s an implicit threat of death.
As I’ve pointed out several times now, Xe’ra’s supernatural mind influences is not just controlling people directly like a puppet. It’s subtle. She has the ability to make people see what she wants them to see, influencing memories and emotions, and–through Lightforging–subtly reshaping ones’ body/mind/soul.
Turalyon does explicitly states that he doesn't doubt the Light/Xe'ra, but he doesn't doubt Alleria as either.
Basically, we’re looking at a conflict within him. Again, he has another out the writers can use. Even if he does fall under Xe’ra’s influence and do a bunch of terrible stuff and serve as villain/antagonist, Alleria can just show up, remind him of their love in some melodramatic cutscene, and have him pull a heel-face-turn.
…
I’m holding Xe’ra to the same standard as all the other people we’ve been talking about who’ve played the part of villain/antagonist. I’m not the one trying to argue that people doing terrible things “good actually” and that a series of villainous actions and antagonistic framing in the context of the story makes them actually a hero because your cause is actually justification for genocide and forced conversion.
The Ebon Blade, Garrosh, MU Garrosh, Lord Godfrey, Gul’dan, Azshara, Sargeras, Zovaal, N’Zoth, Gromm, etc. All of them ended up as villains at some point and only those few whose character progression allowed them to largely start doing the all the terrible stuff and occupying the role of antagonist so they could instead get more heroic stories, did they graduate to anti-hero/anti-villain/villain-protagonist.
I hold Xe’ra to the same standard, considering right now everything she and her AU counterpart have done is something we’ve condemned the above for. Just as I don’t hold the above as independent their AU/MU counterparts when they perform similar despicable acts.
If you’ll look at my history on this forum, you’ll find I even hold the Horde/Alliance to the same standard. I’m on record as going on at length calling out the actions of both factions as world conquering super power that have a nasty history of running around slaughtering/displacing people. My biggest beef being that Blizzard can be inconsistent on when they decide “genocide/racism/genetic determinism is bad.” I was not caught off guard and indignant at the mere idea of Sylvanas being the villain or using the Horde as a tool. The Horde being used as a villain/antagonist is nothing new. It’s well tread ground at this point.
The issue isn’t that I am holding them to a double standard. You are. According to you and several posts you’ve made not just here, but on other places in the forums, "Genocide is wrong, except when the Alliance/Light does it or people deserve it; if you could even call it genocide. Or “Mind control is wrong, except when the Alliance/Light does it or he people deserve it, if you could even call it mind control.” Or “Forcibly conquering/converting people is wrong except, except when the Alliance/Light does it; if you can even call it conquering/converting.”
You keep making up excuses to try and frame Xe’ra and Yrel and others as having done nothing wrong using arguments and white-washing that you don’t want to apply to other characters. You agree that the Alliance and Light can do the same stuff other characters are villainized for, but are indignant at the idea that they could similarly be villainized.
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I suspected clerics were a Warcraft 1 things, thank you for clearing that up. As I said before, manipulating emotions isn’t the same as manipulating thoughts or memories.
This is what happened in the story ‘A Thousand Years of War’, word-for-word, quote;
“Turalyon felt holy wrath coalescing around Alleria. He stepped next to her. ‘Xe’ra, please.’ He said. ‘Show mercy’.
‘I warned her what would happen if she tolerated the shadow. And now, she would defile this place.’
Lothraxion knelt before the whirling power of the mother of Light. ‘Hear my words. Lady Alleria Windrunner came back to save us, knowing she would not be accepted here. Courage, honour, selflessness. These virtues still reside in her heart.
‘Virtues count for nothing, if you stray from the path the Light has chosen for you.’ And yet, despite her anger, Xe’ra hesitated.
Turalyon opened his mind to her, letting her see his doubts, anguish and resolve. ‘I beg you, Xe’ra, do not harm her.’”
Listen to it here; A Thousand Years of War - Part 3 - WoW (worldofwarcraft.com) While I think I know which quotes you’ll cherry-pick, pay attention to these ones first.
“‘I beg you, Xe’ra, do not harm her.’”
“And yet, despite her anger, Xe’ra hesitated.”
I never considered Alleria untrustworthy, and when did Xe’ra ever manipulate people with misinformation? Turalyon disagreed with Xe’ra in person, and now Xe’ra is dead. Him being manipulated wouldn’t make sense now even if MU Xe’ra was still alive and everything you say.
Our fundamental disagreement is the idea that Xe’ra was a villain. Jury’s still out on AU Xe’ra, but MU Xe’ra wasn’t. She was an anti-hero. I wasn’t justifying genocide, the events on AU Draenor weren’t genocide. Why do you keep blaming MU characters for things AU characters did? It’s irrational.
You either misread my posts or are trying to defame me if you think I was greenlighting genocide because the Alliance or Light are doing it. It’s not an Alliance thing; I don’t see Yrel’s Lightbound group as part of the Alliance, they were formed after WoD and seem like they’d want to unify Alliance and Horde, not take sides in that conflict. As for the whole “deserving it”, that’s a different discussion of its own. If you’d actually read my posts and comments carefully, you’d see I disagreed with Xe’ra’s attempt to forcibly Lightforge Illidan (I just also said he was wrong to kill her for it, he could’ve broke free without edgelording her to death) and consider her imprisonment of Alleria arguably disproportionate.
Warcraft I Clerics don’t just influence emotions. They “cloud the perceptions of others".
So if you’ll read that quote from the book you just provided, Turalyon didn’t persuade Xe’ra to do anything. Xe’ra never explicitly threatened to kill Alleria if she used the Void. Alleria came before Xe’ra after being exposed to the Void, Xe’ra chided her, and Turalyon–fearing what Xe’ra might do-- pleaded for mercy before any sentence was was actually given. “Xe’ra’s merciless regard examined his (Turalyon’s) soul”, and only then did she sentence his loving wife of decades to imprisonment for life- a verdict which he did not protest.
Xe’ra held the power throughout the whole exchange. Nobody defied her will. Only pleaded mercy in the face of an unknown punishment.
Xe’ra can show people what the wants them to see. She can manipulate emotions. She can peer across time into their hearts/minds to figure out what motivates them and what they want and send them messages. She is a subtle manipulator. An example of her misleading Turalyon is not letting him know that all naaru go through a void cycle as part of their natural life cycle. When Turalyon learns of this in regards to another Naaru…
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Triumvirate
Xe’ra’s only scenes of real note are her Lightforging of Turalyon to make him her champion, imprisoning of Alleria, and attempted forced Lightforging of Illidan. The only “heroic” thing she’s ever been mentioned as doing that we seem to aprove with is fight the Legion–which everyone who isn’t in the Legion does. And she imprisons/tries to forcibly convert two other would-be allies in the process.
The Devs have made it obvious that Xe’ra exists in part to show that the Light/Naaru are not all good and that while Xe’ra thinks she’s doing good, she is not doing what’s good for the heroes of Azeroth.
I bring up the actions of AU Xe’ra not simply to condemn MU Xe’ra. MU Xe’ra is dead because otherwise, she’d still be trying to convert/imprison/destroy Illidan. But AU Xe’ra (who is still Xe’ra) is still alive, has been shown to accomplish even worse and can still possibly get to Azeroth to reestablish a connecton with Turalyon. And even if she can’t, the possible existence of a THIRD Xe’ra–given the actions of the first two–does not bode well.
Also, I’m not mischaracterizing you. You just made the “Genocide is wrong, except when the Alliance/Light does it or people deserve it; if you could even call it genocide.” argument again.
You keep making up excuses to try and frame Xe’ra and Yrel and others as having done nothing wrong using arguments and white-washing that you don’t want to apply to other characters. You agree that the Alliance and Light can do the same stuff other characters are villainized for, but are indignant at the idea that they could similarly be villainized.
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I concede clerics cloud the perceptions of others too… but do you confuse perceptions with memories?
I figured you’d pick that ‘merciless regard’ quote, which is why I didn’t add it. The fact remains that Turalyon stood up to Xe’ra, and the story outright says Xe’ra hesitated. If there was no conflict of interest, why did she hesitate? Also, why was “holy wrath” coalescing around Alleria if Xe’ra wasn’t going to harm her at first?
There’s a difference between stoking emotions and withholding information. Come to think of it, since Xe’ra was a hardliner among naaru, maybe that’s why she hates the Void so much - she loathes the idea of going into Void form (Xe’ra did express concern about defilement).
By the way, it’s kind of funny that Illidan says “sometimes the hand of fate must be forced” but when someone else does it in a way he doesn’t like, the hypocrite’s suddenly all “my destiny is my own!” (the edgelord cringe in that cinematic…) Funnily, Illidan did something similar to Akama - remember "Shade of Akama, so Xe’ra attempting to Lightforge Illidan sounds like poetic justice. Or do you think Illidan was a hero?
Subtle manipulator? I think you’re seeing what you want to see rather than what’s there… or getting suckered in by Blizzard’s dodgy writing. That quote from Velen was a trick by the writers. They’re recently hitting the Light and naaru with the edgy bat, so they get a trusted character to say something to try and fan the flames of doubt, that was the purpose of Velen’s little “There is much Xe’ra didn’t want you to know” line. It would’ve been nice if Blizz showed that discussion between Velen and Turalyon where Velen told all this supposed “what she didn’t want you to know”; missed opportunity for growth on their part.
What about the whole campaign the PC did with Xe’ra to rescue Illidan’s soul from the Nether and Helya? That interview says the character of Xe’ra was created to explore the idea that not all naaru are necessarily good from the player’s perspective, with naaru all having their own distinct personalities and goals (such as the aforementioned actions of A’dal). While Xe’ra believed that she was indeed doing good, that good was not necessarily good for everyone. Which means a player interpretation of Xe’ra as good is still valid - good is not perfect.
One bad act doesn’t always make a hero a villain. Come to think of it, Xe’ra was the elder naaru who saved Illidan from Kil’jaeden’s clutches in the Illidan novel. That “Illidan kills Xe’ra” cinematic now reminds me of the story “The Farmer and the Viper”.
If you read what I said instead of skimming or quote-mining me, you’d see I clearly explained the distinction between the Alliance and the Lightbound… plus why that wasn’t genocide. I don’t mind the Alliance being the bad guys, I do mind if it’s done using the hackneyed “fanaticism” route.
The Mag’har stuff IS a form of genocide. You can’t get any more blatant than “convert or die,” unless you just skip straight to “die.”
And I think you’re going to have to get over the whole quote-mining thing. If you make a point as part of a larger post and people take issue with it, they’re going to respond to it. As long as they’re not taking things out of context, there’s nothing wrong with snipping out irrelevant stuff.
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More often than not they’re quote-mining to attack a strawman of my actual argument, not “snipping out irrelevant stuff”.
Tammy has stronger arguments than most I’ve debated on this subject, and only did a bit of quote-mining at the beginning, so they’re the least bad on that front. I wouldn’t keep saying quote-mine if people stopped doing it (eg; Baalsamael was the worst offender).
Actual genocide doesn’t give the “join” option, it skips straight to “everyone dies”. The Mag’har didn’t have their books, artworks, and structures destroyed, the Lightbound weren’t trying to remove them from history… they even kept their language, animal husbandry and fighting style. They’re lacking a lot of the aspects of “cultural genocide”. Want to see actual cultural genocide in WoW, check out what Lei Shen did to the Pandaren, then compare and contrast.
Blizzard calls it “character development”. The Horde made the same plea. Look how well Blizzard listened.
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People re obsessed with the term “genocide”, as if murder of lot of people isn’t really evil if being done for wealth, power, or subjugation.
The Lightbound were trying to religiously subjugate an entire people and killing anyone who resisted. Does it really need to be called genocide to be unconscionable?
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I’m not the throwing the word “genocide” around, and I’m not saying the Lightbound did nothing wrong (anymore), I’m saying what the Lightbound did - bad it was - was not genocide.
The ability to manipulate perceptions does allow the ability to manipulate memories. You can’t remember what you can’t perceive and how/what you remember is based on your perceptions of past experiences. Xe’ra can: show people what the wants them to see. She can manipulate emotions. She can peer across time and into their hearts/minds to figure out what motivates them and what they want and send them messages.
Additionally, Turalyon pleading for mercy in the face of any unknown punishment then not objecting to the punishment is not defiance. Turalyon did not defy Xe’ra. We don’t know why Xe’ra hesitated. She held all the cards in that transaction.
No, Illidan was not a hero. In fact Illidan was a villain antagonist in WC3, the villain antagonist in TBC. He was an anti-hero at best and anti-villain/villainous protagonist at worst in Legion. Illidan was a hypocrite who did a lot of stuff and got villain batted plenty for it. That Xe’ra wated to save him purely to further her personal goals of using him as a pawn in their shared desire to defeat the Legion is not a check in her favor and doesn’t mean she can’t be a villain.
You stated that Xe’ra doesn’t misdirect people, but we have a quest that shows she did mislead Turalyon. Velen outright stated that Xe’ra was keeping that and more from him. You dismiss t because it makes her look bad. Yes it makes Xe’ra look bad. She did a bad thing. It would be nice if Velen went on to continue listing all the other stuff Xe’ra withheld. I would expect more of her misdirection to be revealed should she show up again in any kind of “Tyranny of the Light” expansion. Let’s hope they continue to explore that thread.
And again, the developers outright state that they wrote Xe’ra this way with the express intent of further explorting how the Light isn’t always good and how she’s not acting in the best interests of the heroes of Azeroth. Not just their interests from the perspective of players, but also from the perspective of characters in universe. The Devs aren’t trying to trick you. They’re being incredibly open about what they’re doing with her in the narrative.
And again, you try to argue that it’s okay for the Light to engage in genocide, and try to absolve her of it by arguing that the Mag’har of 30 years hence actually deserved what’s happening to them and how it “technically isn’t genocide” (it is, though), as if that still makes it not some kind of villainous act.
Of course you’re free to say think/say actually Xe’ra’s good and has done nothing wrong. You just don’t have any strong arguments or evidence to back it up. You have to deny/excuse all instances of her wrong doing, dismiss events in games/novels, refute the stated authorial intent of the authors, and use standards that you don’t apply to other characters in the narrative.
All because you want the Light to always be in the right in the narrative and never have villainous elements. Not because it’s the actual case, but because that’s how you want them to be an are indignant at the very idea that they might not be.
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