Good. I hope the gate keepers isolate themselves.
And those people can keep playing that way. solo self found as a personal choice is completely fine. The forcing EVERYONE to do solo self found because you want it is the overreach I don’t want. If people don’t want to trade simple they just don’t have to trade, no one is forcing them to trade if they don’t want to trade.
And no my analogy make sense for your position that “to stop botting we need to stop trading/AH/mailing” To try and say “well some people just don’t want to trade besides the botting issue” when that wasn’t in your original post to attack my analogy is silly.
so in short, if people want to do solo self found, that’s fine, but to force that play style on everyone by changing how the server works is not acceptable.
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Ok, well would you be okay with an EXP increase offered from the shop? What about extra lives?
And, using your logic, those that do not like that gameplay simply don’t have to partake in it, right?
Nope, it’s a false equivalency which is a failure in logic. Trading is not “cutting your hands off”. Do try again.
Right, so let’s also bring in the WoW token, as well as EXP boosts, items on the shop, heirlooms, extra lives, etc. And don’t worry, you don’t have to use any of it. Per your own logic, forcing a play style on everyone is not acceptable.
Hopefully you see how incoherent your argument is now, but if not, at least everyone else does.
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What? no, why would I be OK with those things being added, those are not at all equivalent to allowing trading, duos and trios already allow low level trading, and you can fully trade and use the AH at 60 so it’s not like having trading/AH/Mail is antithetical to a hardcore experience only to a solo self found experience which isn’t what everyone wants. You’re not using my logic you’re trying to twist it by trying to equate someone choosing to do solo self found a handicap, to someone paying for advantages.
no my analogy fits, your solution to fixing the botting problem which is equivalent to a splinter in your finger for your arm that represents the economy is to cut off your hand which represents low level trading, which just destroys the servers economy while sometimes dealing with the bot problem but also not really as they’ll bot to 60 and just sell gold/items at max level so it’s like cutting off the hand that doesn’t even have the splinter in it.
If you think my analogy doesn’t fit explain, don’t just cross your arms and say it doesn’t without explaining.
Once again you’re trying to equate P2W aspects of the game that aren’t core parts of WoW to trading/mail/AH which are important social and economic parts of the game and extremely important for keeping a server and community alive.
Once again having a self imposed handicap is not equivalent to people gaining advantages with pay too win things. I don’t want P2W in hardcore either but I also don’t want to force handicaps that aren’t a core aspect of hardcore either.
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Why aren’t you? You said
In the same respect, no one is forcing you to buy an EXP boost. If you do not want it, simply don’t purchase it. Why does the logic work for trading but not an EXP boost? Is it because one suits your narrative and the other doesn’t? Are we starting to see how that argument doesn’t work in practice?
Nope, it’s a false equivalency which is a failure in logic. Try again.
I’ve already explained it’s a false equivalency. Do I need to say this 3 times? Do you not know what a false equivalency is?
Once again, I’m applying YOUR LINE OF THOUGHT which you have used to defend trading. And once again, you are incapable of defending your line of thought when it is applied to any other scenario.
You know what that means? It means the argument doesn’t work. Plain and simple. If you still don’t understand this there’s not much more I can do to explain it to you, but I would not be surprised if trading is restricted on HC server if this is the best defense you have, as it’s not a defense at all.
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nobody is forcing you to do anything. if you don’t like it, just play era… 
Most opinions I have heard in game are from players who plan to abandon most hardcore restrictions on reaching 60.
At this point you’re coming off as a troll. Trading is a core concept of the game, MMOS are social games, the professions in this game, and the economy of a server are built off of trading. Even with the hardcore addon TRADING IS STILL ALLOWED IN DUOS/TRIOS AT LOW LEVELS AND FOR EVERYONE AT 60.
EXP, wow token, and other P2W things, are not and have not been apart of classic era, or the hardcore addon. Once again you are side stepping what I’m saying. If YOU want to handicap yourself with solo self found, that is fine. it only affects YOU. Forcing everyone to be solo self found effects everyone, just like adding P2W things affects EVERYONE, so it’s no equivalent.
Ironically YOU are making a false equivalency with trying to say not wanting forced solo self found on everyone but still allowing people to do solo self found if they want, is the same as having P2W attributes in the game with exp boosts/shop items/wow token.
Handicapping yourself only affects one person, you. having P2W items in the game affects everyone on the server, just like forcing everyone on the server to do solo self found effects everyone. As in if you don’t participate in the P2W aspects that are added to the game you will fall behind others which creates an inherently unfair envoirment.
But if you CHOOSE to hinder yourself with solo self found it is YOUR choice to fall behind others who will want to trade. Everyone still has agency, unlike with P2W items being added and solo self found being FORCED on everyone.
HOW is it a false equivalency?
you saying “Ha it’s a false equivalency” doesn’t make it true. NOTE how above i explain how YOU are ironically presenting my argument as a false equivalency.
I present my argument, the burden of proof is on you to show where my argument is faulty, you can’t just say “It’s a false equivalency” and expect that to mean anything, this isn’t first year of philosophy 101, you gotta actually SAY what makes it a false equivalency.
You haven’t shown where my argument, which is:
Allow trading/mail/AH at all levels just as it is on classic era. And if people want to do solo self found let them, but don’t force it on everyone else.
is at all equivalent to allowing P2W in hardcore.
As I stated many times already, the addon already allows trading at max level, where arguably the MOST ACTUAL P2W transactions occur, i.e. money for epic mounts, GDKP, flask reagents.
little jimmy buying some greens off the AH or buying some leather to make bags isn’t game breaking.
Also I’m just going to ignore you if you just reply without actually addressing what I’ve written for a third time.
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You don’t need an economy to play hardcore. The mode doesn’t require that. You guys who want to play normally really just need regular fresh servers.
And hardcore is a different mode. Hardcore has been a play style for years. It’s always been you against the world. It’s never been you along with your army of alts, your friends and the rest of the server against the world. What you are looking for is a fresh normal play server.
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The hardcore I want to play, is just the normal game with death = delete. What some of you hardcore addon purists want to play sounds more like a single player rogue-like, than an MMO.
duos and trios contradict this.
trading and AH use being allowed at 60 contradicts this.
the whole point of the trading ban in the addon, at least originally, was to prevent non-hardcore people from interacting with hardcore people. with an all hardcore server the restriction isn’t necessary.
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Yes, it’s more a survivalist mode, like the original hardcore Ironman.
The addon is more generous than the original hardcore. By the way, I don’t feel duo and trio fit the mode and don’t use that option. The majority don’t use it either.
Yes, you’ve indicated that, and you’ll likely get it. I’ll be playing the old school survivalist mode. The only reason I’ll play on the server is to validate my run, since the addon can be cheated. Hopefully I’ll finish what I want to accomplish before the server gets overwhelmed with golden whales.
This is the part where I’ll side with the “this is an MMO” crowd.
Not only is this game built around trading with each other but GROUPING with each other, as well. I never understood the HC rule that you can group for dungeons (including the lobby) but not other elite areas like the Ogres in Loch, Dwarves in Wetlands, Orcs in Redridge, etc.
That being said, I agree with the concept of HC being 100% solo/self-made. Otherwise, what’s the point? I don’t consider 1 life to be HC, at all, but I digress.
Well, having played Diablo for ages as HC back before they made it easy to play as HC, its 1 life, and that’s it with the exception that you’re segregated from the non HC players. That’s what wow should be and what many of the rules seem like they were trying to enforce initially, all this solo self sufficiency stuff, while doing it as a challenge isn’t HC, and its not really any harder than it is with groups, in fact it might be easier since your not having to rely on other people.
That said I would really hope that if a HC server comes out, with no need to really track deaths anymore that maybe the add-on could be modified to not drive as much anti social behavior as it currently does due to the SFF rules. While I understand the idea behind the them, and have gone to 60 under the rules, at the same time, there is nothing self sufficient about 1 shooting a mob on a 15m timer, and where maybe the add-on could be modified to allow grouping on specific quests or for specific mobs, especially where there is zero challenge grouped or solo for any class.
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I’ll admit, it’s “semantics” with me. I don’t consider you “hardcore” if you do everything but just NOT die…OFC, this is a subjective argument.
Would be nice to be able to port HCers around Azeroth, so they don’t have to get creative with hill jumps and swimming tricks to reach the opposite continent, safely without death. I really don’t feel like a Mage Port is ruining, anything.
And, if I can buff players, unprompted, shouldn’t other players be allowed to trade gold to each other “unprompted”? OFC, IK the addon can only track so much.
IK which quests require some profession items. There’s a quest where you need to hand a Gnome, in Tinkertown (of IF) a bunch of low level potions. There’s (also) a quest chain to get the Sprite Darter, where you need like 2 elixirs. And, OFC, the Enchanting profession requires a Blacksmith to make the Rods. Speaking of Blacksmiths, it takes a Blacksmith to apply the Spurs on one’s Feet.
This game is definitely designed for us to help each other. That being said, I’d be more impressed with somebody who did it ALL by themselves WITHOUT the help, of other people. That, to me, is “hardcore”.
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Why? Because I call out your incoherent argument and you are incapable of positing a proper defense for it?
That isn’t typically used with the current hardcore addon. It’s a core concept FOR YOU. That does not make it a core concept for everyone else. You do not get to decide what is a core concept for MMORPGs, Classic, or Hardcore Classic.
Well with your logic it’s fine if they are, because anyone who doesn’t like it doesn’t have to use it.
And if YOU want to handicap yourself with no token, that is fine. It only affects YOU. Are you still not seeing how that argument fails immediately?
It seems to me that you have no idea what a false equivalency even is. Do some research and try again.
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You’re right, a lot of what “hardcore” is, does really come down to semantics. I guess I don’t really equate to calling the game more “hardcore” if it really is doing nothing that making the game more tedious, but where it’s not adding any real challenge. For example if someone wants level as an enchanter solo it really isn’t viable, the only real option is to level mining/bs and then switching once you created the rods, but at which time a good portion of the journey is over.
I guess this is why personally I would rather see a HC server where they don’t try to regulate how people play, but instead let people continue to use an add-on like hardcore to determine the how they want to play, and where it would be nice if the add-on could offer up different challenge modes, ranging from SFF, to less restrictive rules which might allow some more limited grouping, or the purchase of select items. Perhaps the add-on could give people titles similar in the way that TRP3 works with names, allowing you to easily see who is doing what challenge.
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I’m fine with folks that just want to do a “1 Life Only” Challenge. It’s just not “hardcore” LOL
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I think I can agree to disagree with you on that.
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That’s usually all it is though. Even back in the day with Diablo 2, you didn’t have weird restrictions for whatever reason. You could still play with others, trade stuff, and at the end of the day it was 1 life. You died, you became a ghost forever. Unable to play on that character.
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