There weren’t two different play styles in mop that was viable in raid, there was just the one build everyone ran. And I don’t think current MW needs a lot changed, I think if they gave us mana tea baseline, worked more spells into our mastery, and tweaked mana a little it would be great.
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Monk is completely fine in PvE. I think a lot of people either don’t enjoy it or don’t play it well. Our mana is fine. If you’re going oom then you need to rethink which spells you’re using and talents you’re running. Life cycles is amazing in dungeons (way of the crane isn’t bad either). I save WAY more mana with those compared to mana tea over the course of a dungeon. Jade serpent statue is insane in dungeons, about 5k heal over 7ish sec for 200 mana. The shorter duration was a huge buff if people would just learn how to manage it. Also, a couple ticks of soothing mist may be better than a vivify at times, no need to overheal. It procs out mastery and our mastery is free healing. Don’t use essence font in dungeons (like ever).
In raid, use way of the crane and refreshing jade wind and primarily cast essence font, refreshing jade wind, chi burst, and renewing mist on cd with the occasional vivify/enveloping mist. And of course use tear of morning in dungeons and ancient teachings in raid. And most importantly, haste is insanely good for us in every scenario.
I started uploading vids of me healing as mw in 16-20ish pug keys on twitch (/Midnight_TuBs). With a coordinated group, monks can definitely keep up in heals with the other healing classes in 24/25s. (That being said, nerf holy paladin damage already…)
It’s not that JSS shorter duration wasn’t good, it’s just chi ji lines up so well for prideful. I’m able to cover prideful just with chi ji, so nice.
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My monk is generally “OK” in mana as well and uses Mana Tea instead. It’s about the path - for me I’m fistweaving so Lifecycles isn’t as vital as Enveloping Mist and Vivify are both not major to my rotation (and yes, I’m still our top HPS in throughput in our alt night raid where the other healers are a Druid and a Shaman).
I agree with you on the “rethink which spells your using” comment.
I can easily burn all my mana and be stuck there with no mana and no cooldowns to get it back. I figured out how to do that early into being 60 (I’m also using monk on a highmountain tauren alt to speed level and unlock the heritage set - and that lowbie monk can’t go OOM even when I try… but that’s lowbie content for you…).
But after figuring out how to fail, I went through the abilities and went through my chosen playstyle and changed up my rotation to better manage things.
I can easily find myself spending about half a fight rotating around the 30-40% mana space - but that’s fine. That’s my “in the zone” spot - it’s where I’ve dished out all my setup, we’ve had 1-2 bad phases in a row where the alt-night folks ALL stood in the fire because ranged are on their melee alts, melee are on their ranged alts, etc… and well… I’ve got my fistweaving going using less mana than I’m burning and I have enough mana left to handle the next “hey, I like fire” moment of the night.
I’ve gotten to the point where I am considering swapping in my monk for our heroic raid for the first half - and seeing how I do when the raid are playing the classes they don’t stand in fire with… 
Also just started doing lowbie M+, and that’s been a little rough - but I can see the rough is me getting used to it more than “this class is fail”. People always love to blame anything but their own skill… but I’m smart enough to know when the mess up is on me, so hopefully soon I’ll be able to push up what I can do with my monk.
As a note Mana tea is the best mana talent on that row. If you’re going lifecycles you’re probably going ot have mana issues
In all reality its weird to talk about mana since all specs will go oom if they play poorly.
The only spec that really has a i don't spend mana is paladin which paladin is plagued with problems such as
I do the most dps during lust out of ALL SPECS.
I don’t spend mana.
My passive DR is stupid in terms of efficiency (but right when a ret or prot paladin comes in you lose all of that value lmao)
I think you guys missed what I said about raiding.
I said…
“In raid, use way of the crane and refreshing jade wind and primarily cast essence font, refreshing jade wind, chi burst, and renewing mist on cd with the occasional vivify/enveloping mist. And of course use tear of morning in dungeons and ancient teachings in raid. And most importantly, haste is insanely good for us in every scenario.”
I never said to use life cycles in raid. I said to use spirit of the crane and ancient teachings. As for mana tea, best case scenario you save about 9k mana once every 1.5min during it’s use. That’s being extremely generous because using it on cooldown is almost never the case and being able to make all the healing spells effective healing (i.e. not overhealing) is almost never the case either. In raid with SotC, a 3 stack blackout Kick gets you 1k mana and you’re definitely going to be getting a lot of those off during 1.5 mins. With zero haste (which should never be the case) it’ll take you about 54 secs worth of TP/BK to get back 9k mana.
In dungeons with life cycles, approximately 7 uses of the vivify and enveloping mist mana reduction buff will save you 9k mana. Getting this many off is very easy in dungeons since we’re constantly using EnV on the tank and spot healing group damage with vivify. With practice and buff tracking, it’s very easy to take full advantage of the talent and synergizes very well with tear of the morning legendary in dungeons.
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It’s entirely possible I’m a horrible player but Monk is the only healer I have Mana issues with.
Holy Pal, Resto Shaman, Resto Druid I can chain cast heals into set-up heals into more heals and it’s hard to go OOM, even if I try. Especially Pally and Shaman.
Going OOM on Mistweaver happens constantly. I have to be super stingy with every single spell I cast.
I don’t see a problem w this playstyle but I do see a problem when only MW Monk has to sorry about it(Mana issues).
Even w Ancient Teaching Leggy, which one would thing would be a Mana Conserve playstyle requires the investment of Essence Don’t on CD while keeping up Renewing and tossing occasional Vivs.
I mean, like I said, I’m sure I’m just a bad player but Mana is "only* ever noticable on my Monk. Never on my other healers.
Granted I’m a baddie and haven’t done anything higher than a +15 this season…but it’s noticable asf, to me. And feels really bad.
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Mistweaver is a mana hungry spec.
You’ll always find people saying “you’re just bad, learn to play the class”, but that’s not really the case. The spec does have some issues (mana being only one of them, and not the worst).
Now, that doesn’t mean you will always go OOM. For example, when I raid with my guild, and everyone is using their mains and do their jobs, I can top healing and get a nice warcraft logs parse, while also ending up with 80% of my mana (and probably casting almost zero vivifies or enveloping mists). Now, when those perfect scenarios do not apply, that’s when MW will go OOM faster than any other healer.
It is possible to play as a MW and do most if not all content, but I agree on the spec needing some love, probably more so than any other healer right now.
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But pre Shadowlands Hpal didnt need to do damage at all, they literally took what was cool about Mistweavers and gave it pallies, then just sh*t all over MWs
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that’s the funny thing, they still don’t, and yet blizzard hasn’t nerfed hpal damage for god knows whatever reason
It’s not about buffing or nerfing. It’s all about other healers bringing more to the raid than a MW can.
Why heal damage when you can prevent it? They do more damage, and their raid CDs are better, just flat out.
At the start of the expansion when Tear of Morning was the go to, we needed an innervate almost every fight. We’re taking that innervate away from a disc priest who, at the time, could absorb 100% of the player’s HP in damage and do it raid wide.
Mistweaver doesn’t need buffs. We just need a reason to be brought to a raid and that might mean nerfing the utility of another healer so they’re not so indispensable.
Think about this: If Havoc DHs did the same amount, the exact same amount of damage than an Unholy DK and they both have a raid wide DR in Darkness vs AMZ you literally choose one on a fight by fight basis on the type of damage you’re taking. Don’t get me started on the fact two DPS specs have a better raid CD than a Mistweaver.
There’s never any discussion around what healers you should bring to a raid fight unless there’s a gimmick. You always start with Disc priest, holy paladin and resto shaman. The rest of the specs are left to what? Battle over who’s least useless?
Spread the utility around and you’ll see a much healthier ecosystem in both healers and DPS.
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while you do make a point - there is something you are missing i think. a top-of-the-line mistweaver is fine mana-wise. the average player like myself however, can find themself in a situation where they dump almost half our mana to keep people alive - something that costs a lot less mana on a resto sham or holy pal.
does that mean I’m bad? maybe… but I don’t think that should force me to go play a paly/sham or even do easier content. especially if the devs can make the class less forgiving to mistakes without much effort. they can literrally open these forums and find tons of great ideas, any one or two of them would help so much.
I don’t think it’s a problem of you being a bad player.
I’m not a pro, I’m probably just somewhere middle of the pack, but in my experience, I can finish a fight with almost 100% of my mana and still get a decent parse in warcraft logs.
Now, that’s when the rest of the raid does its job correctly and I can maintain a great DPS uptime. When things don’t go that smooth, you’re correct in saying that MW has a harder time than other healers in terms of mana.
I do agree with the previous post, though. It’s not so much a matter of numbers alone, but a matter of having something to bring about, anything that could compete with what the meta healers have.
Personally I always play Mana Tea in raid, even with ancient teaching. Both talents are perfectly viable, the majority play mana tea.
If you’re playing Yu’lon and don’t get funnelled innervates, having mana team is immensely beneficial during that CD alone. Even if you get 1 innervate per yu’lon + mana tea the amount of healing (and mana saved) is huge. In mythic raiding there are plenty of scenarios where you can cast for a full 20 seconds of yu’lon and not really overheal.
In heroic it matters a lot less because at this point I doubt you’d be ooming in heroic unless deliberately padding/under-healing for parses.
I don’t push keys at all, just run my 15s, and seeing as you do high keys your setup seems interesting and cool to see. I don’t agree with never casting essence font personally, because even cancelling once the hot is applied on everyone for the double gust proc can be pretty helpful in topping the group, but I get that it’s not very mana efficient.
In terms of PvE, m+ is definitely where monk probably struggles the most. The spec definitely has mana issues, and it’s harder to deal with burst damage as we don’t really have burst healing (mainly ReM + vivify cleave) but it’s still perfectly viable, just requires a little more effort on the players part.
Raiding we still definitely run into mana problems, especially on prog, however we actually have some insane throughput as a spec. The only reason why you don’t see monks in the world first race is because we don’t provide a DR CD and our damage in general is lower compared to specs like Disc and Hpal. We definitely need some extra utility to make us a desired healer to bring to raid though. Community perception hurts.
Here’s the official buff Mistweaver thread if you’d like to support the cause - State of Mistweaver PVP - Shadowlands (Week 1)
i mean if you don’t think it still feels bad to be a mistweaver in 5mans idk what game your playing revival is the weakest 3min cd its does like 5k healing per person. they need to scale it the less people it heals the more it does or somthing.
If ur basing it ONLY on revival sure, however we have incredible heals for 5 people. Also chi ji is awsome for prideful. Revival is also super nice on margrave stradama who puts probably the strongest dot effect in the game on the entire raid. But that’s only my perspective.
I don’t doubt MWs can’t do high level keys (even if not highest) or heal Mythic Raids, but I’d argue they have to put in way more effort than everyone else.
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I’m not so sure about that, in keys maybe, but raid healing for any class is super simple to learn. Whether you fistweave or mist weave in raid the rotation is very easy to learn .