Yep, it’s actually the weirdest game design in history that the devs decided to make the Paladin class, historically known as being the DEFENSIVE healer, the best damage of all the healers while they leave the martial arts class with noodle arm damage.
These are some F-tier unpaid intern levels of bad class design. I legit think the class devs forgot that Monks exist when designing these healers.
Not quite. Mobile SooM doesn’t have to work like it did in Legion, nor does an Eminence-like effect have to work like it did in MoP/WoD. I didn’t ask for what we had, I’m asking for something new. Mobile SooM? Unleash the current SooM. Done. Eminence-like effect? Let non-auto attack melee attacks do some % (smart) healing. Done. These are entirely possible changes bc they’re literally just tweaking the current iteration of MW. I’m not asking for a return to the past at all.
You made it contradictory, not me. I’m not asking for the past to return, even if there is some similarity to a thing that existed previously. The game is different. The class is different. The spec is different. Things can’t be the same. Today’s SooM isn’t like yesterday’s SooM. The whole point of unleashing (current) SooM would be to make the spec more mobile for defensive purposes, seeing as the devs are hell-bent on treating mobility as a defensive. Being forced to heal-turret is the very antithesis of MW mobility - and this esp. given the fact that they nerfed our survivability a ton going into SL. As per an Eminence-like effect: this should have already been in the game. The fact that if got rolled into a leggo in SL as opposed to being baked into the spec is just a slap in the face - and y’all are just happy to sit there are take that kind of treatment: “Thank you, Blizz. Can I have some more punishment?” Enjoy your “Fist-weaving” now I guess, bc come 10.0, the leggo is gunna be removed, like all borrowed power systems before it. A leggo shouldn’t be a solution, but w/e.
Why do I want to see an Eminence-like effect baked into the spec? Well, bc I need a good reason to risk my neck punching things, for little to no damage, in melee range - that’s why. Rn, I seriously question why we even have melee attacks at all. Are they just there for completing WQs (e.g. - kill 10 boars, etc.,etc.)? We’re supposed to be mobile and are we’re supposed to rely on our mobility, but we have melee attacks forcing us into melee range as one of the squishiest Healers in the game… why? Honestly, I think it’s bc we USED to be melee Healers, and they just never got around to addressing that inconsistency. Our melee attacks are left-over abilities.
Most of them are already castable while moving. What difference is this gunna make? Honestly, I do think ppl blow this a little out of proportion when they say, “Oh gawd, that’ll be OP!” No it won’t be OP. The way MWs are rn, it def won’t be OP. It’s esp. funny when PVErs complain about it bc it’ll do practically nothing for PVE. Spamming SooM into Viv/EnvM is a recipe for disaster - you ought to know that. MWs PVE “Rotation” isn’t suddenly gunna change bc SooM is unleashed and they can cast a couple more spells while moving.
Revert or unpruning? There’s a bit of a difference. They unpruned a lot of things, but they certainly didn’t revert much, as far as I’ve seen. Most classes/specs are kinda just continuations of their BFA iterations, sans BFA borrowed power systems, w the addition of a few more spells and some buffs/nerfs. We lost our BFA gear. That’s… about how it feels.
Not sure I agree. Classes/specs from old xpacs are built up and around, balanced around, the content in that xpac (including old iterations of other classes/specs). I do not think you can just “Plug ‘n play” an old iteration of MW. Ppl make it all seem like a mere triviality - the devs could just click a button and BOOM a perfectly functioning MoP-style MW appears, but that’s bc they’re looking at MW in a conceptual vacuum as opposed to in relation w everything else.
What does it mean to say that a Healer is “Basic?” Kinda sounds subjective to me.
Of course. Nobody says it has to be the EXACT same thing. Times have changed. The game has changed. Eminence, or an Eminence-like effect, would have to change, too.
Highly disagree. A revert would be FAR more problematic than unleashing (current) SooM. That said, I’d love to hear all about the ways in which (current) SooM being unleashed would break MWs beyond repair. That’s what PVErs all say, but I’m not convinced - I mean, they haven’t presented any convincing examples of instances when it’d prove to be any better than the current “Rotations”. I mean, it’s not like SooM would suddenly become a better heal; it’s not like SooM spamming would suddenly become more mana-efficient. Thinking back over dungeons and the raid, I just don’t see a time when a mobile SooM would have made much of a difference.
In PVP it’d be strong. No doubt. But most of ppl speaking against it are, oddly enough, PVErs not PVPrs.
ok, I guess thats fair enough.
I would say Paladins Holy Power was more revert than unprune. It is definitely a switch from BFA iteration.
Similarity to those who are asking for MW to get Chi back.
I’m not saying whether I like mobile SooM or not. Honestly I really liked the Legion version of it. But its not about the rotation, its more about making boss fight mechanics less significant. Whenever you have to move out of something the boss does, you can’t use all of your best heals because of lack of casting while moving.
Ex. MW on Sludgefist gets chained to the melee, so when he does the thing that the melee have to move out, we currently cannot be using vivify or envm, but if we had mobile SooM, we could suddenly do that. Would definitely be strong.
Likewise Council, specifically Heroic there are tons of movement requiring abilities: Dance Partners, basically anything 3rd phase Freida does, if we could cast all of our heals during those times it would again be really strong.
Hungering destroyer when he sucks you in, 2nd phase sire when remornia is making the lines of death on the floor
Its not about just mobile SooM, mobile SooM brings mobile vivify and envm.
It wouldn’t be a recipe for disaster if those were the only spells we had off cd to cast while moving. When you have used Essence Font and Renewing Mist, everything else cannot be cast while moving as is now.
I mean there is a reason Shaman have Spiritwalker on a cd, if they could do that all the time, it would be really strong.
its the fact that thunder focus is on such a long cool down its basically swiftmend on a 1 minute cd.
But we don’t numerically suck now and to talk about mechanically suck its a weird thing. There are a lot of people who like the way Mistweaver play without fistweaving
by “a lot of people” do you mean by far the least played healer in the game? Even if those people are content with the gameplay, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be better
From what I have seen and know about there is a good sized community of people who play mistweaver who enjoy the post wod gameplay.
I mean, the spec just lost mechanics in the Legion prepatch so I’m not sure who is saying they prefer it besides people who didn’t play it.
I enjoy the post wod game play, had they kept mw as it was from mop/wod I really do feel like I would’ve switched from monk only because I don’t think that MW design could’ve done M+. I remember doing M0 as a MW in wod and just hating my rotation there.
People say that old mistweaver wouldn’t have been able to perform in m+ but it was a better design of what holy paladin can dominate m+ with now
Not.even.close. Because of old MWs horrible mana usage we had mana tea to offset it. Surging mist was our spammable spell and it cost if I remember right like 6% of our mana or something, in keys. Espiecally high keys we wouldn’t be able to use mana tea that well and would oom that much faster. Old MW mana consumption compared to current hpal is so different they might as be night and day
The problem with making generic statements is that more often then not you are insultingly wrong.
why did they make mana tea a talent and not keep it base line and make it give mana back
They should just make it baseline, so dumb it isn’t, I haven’t switched off mana tea in years lol.
To each their own I guess, but the class is genuinely just Mistweaver-lite now. I’m honestly not sure what the appeal would be besides it just became simpler. Even being as objective as possible I think the original mistweaver was a much better designed class holistically put together. It also was fairly competitive whereas the newer version has been one of the weaker healers almost every patch of its existence.
I mean if Mop MW was around now it could be competitive in raid but would be horrible in keys, at least MW now is good enough across the board pve wise.
It would more than likely be completely fine, they can still just adjust chi generation/talents/etc. It’s definitely not like the spec couldn’t ever be suited to perform well in m+. And it’s definitely worth it to have a much better foundation for the class, something that can be built on instead of just tuned back and forth between trash and mediocrity.
When people say “we would just have to tweek X then it’ll be fine” that thought process is incredibly lazy, if you were to tweek old MW to be strong in 5 man then it wouldn’t be old MW. Had M+ been around back in mop and wod people probably would’ve noticed then how bad MW was in smaller group environments. It’s base was great in raid, but that’s it, it felt bland and bad in dungeons and though I didn’t pvp often it felt meh there also.
Also our class can be built on, from legion to bfa we got a lot better, I’m pretty sure we are the only healer with two different ways of healing right now. I love that, both fistweaving and MWing are viable and that’s awesome. In wod I felt obligated to go pools of mists because that’s what was strong, fistweaving was fun but it couldn’t beat pools of mist uplift super multi strike healing. Now both rising mist and upwelling are viable in raiding and both are doing well in mythic, my only gripe with this spec right now is mana, people want our dmg to be giga but hpal is an outlier, MW does do decent dmg for a HEALER.
If something is able to be improved, then it should be. I’m not suggesting that we intentionally keep everything about the old mistweaver just for nostalgia’s sake, it’s to better the design of the spec. I’m suggesting they revert the spec and build from that. Build on the old, keep things that the new does right.
Legion to BfA was just Blizzard reverting soothing mist and functionality. And if you want two differing playstyles to be viable then they were already more distinct in mop with the melee gameplay being much more engaging.
The current spec lacks a gameplay niche (something that all the other healers have) and has an extraordinarily small playerbase. Regardless of how different our views are on the class I think we can both agree that thats somewhat problematic and deserves some sort of non-numerical attention.