if you guys get the convenants essentially ruined because your min/max bs i’m gonna be irritated.
How would having the abilities be flexible ruin covenants?
As a casual RP player - I can still pick one covenant and stick with it. Other people being able to switch freely doesn’t impact my choice at all, or the value that sticking with a covenants gives me.
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are you in favor of paid class changes as well even if you wouldn’t use it? it’s the same thing. it’s a core part of your character in the expansion. it’s supposed to be a hard choice. one that sticks with you. that has consequences. i cannot tank or heal on this warlock. and you cannot tank on your shaman. we leveled these toons knowing this restriction, and did it anyway. we could both main druids right now but i assume you don’t, i don’t. if they make it so you can change willy nilly it’ll be like changing your class with $60 or whatever it would be.
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Yeah - If I don’t value changing my class, I won’t change it. But others being able to do so doesn’t impact me at all. So I have no issues with paid class changes - because it doesn’t get in the way of me enjoying a commitment I make to sticking with the Shaman I rolled.
It can be a hard choice for me if I want it to be - and I can get the value from it by sticking with that choice. What other people do, or are able to do, has no impact on that whatsoever.
If they make it so you can change - just like how you can change your realm, class, appearance, faction, etc. - then my life and value for the game won’t change one bit. Other people paying to change stuff doesn’t impact me sticking with a class, covenant, faction, etc.
In virtually almost every case - I won’t even know the difference unless I’m tracking each person and what they first started their character as…and then for some reason let what goes on in their lives impact me.
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see and i’m the opposite. i LOVE that class is locked in. i have 19 120s. each made for a specific reason. each different than the other. they’re all people. i play wow because it’s a darn good rpg. i would unsub and never look back if they put in paid class changes. and that’s not an exaggeration.
But someone else changing their faction, class, appearance, covenant, realm doesn’t impact us. We really are completely oblivious to it ever happening unless we pull some kind of data from wow armory and track it in some spreadsheet.
It objectively has no impact on my gameplay as a casual RP player.
I love that I’m a shaman. I love that I’ve chosen to stick to being a shaman. I get the value from that regardless of anyone else being able to change anything else about their character/account/etc.
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it for me would be the devs saying “we give up on this being an rpg. the game is now a min/max max level content simulator” and i wouldn’t want to support that.
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And the “consequence” for the new system is that someone who wants to do pvp, mythic+, and raiding will be gimped in 2 of the three he couldn’t choose.
When the only “choice” players have is whether they play or quit the game, that’s the ultimate arrogance on the part of the designers.
People always have that choice. Telling them that the definition of “fun” is “playing a perfectly designed game” is irrelevant. They’re not going to care about your definition of fun you’re trying to cram down their throats in order to make you feel “all’s right with the world”.
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1 - there’s so much more about this game that is an RPG. In fact - there are other very successful RPGs that allow for complete class changes on the same character; being able to do that doesn’t somehow invalidate those games as RPGs. There’s no divine rule about RPGs that state’s that.
2 - Others being able to do that doesn’t impact anything about how I play the game. It literally has no objective impact on my life and character within the game.
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if it’s like a wizard powering up to be a warlock or something yeah i get that. prestige classes in games. that’s fine.
starting out on a priest and then getting sick you can’t run mythic+ the way you want to so switching to druid and then deciding later that you want to do raids and then you switch to MW and then- you see where i’m going with this?
Devs created min max culture. They’ve been pushing it hard for years. And they’ve suddenly decided they want those players to deliberately work at being bad players who don’t care about their performance?
Something’s not quite right.
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That would be like me asking you if you’re in favor of only being able to pick one spec of a class. It’s not really that comparable because it’s basicly 4 class abilities/talents.
It’s not a hard choice, it’s a lazy choice. You pick one you’re done for this expansion.
People that care also like classes just play multiple characters. So, it’s a voluntary thing. Do you want to limit yourself or not? The game most often said no. We don’t need more than class limitations. Because a class is the main conduit of the players, it’s the one they should stick with.
Races can be changed, factions can be changed, talents can be changed but classes can’t be.
So are covenants are as important as a faction? I’d say no, they are not even important as a race for me, they are the lesser of the lesser choice. So I don’t get why people get off with that one choice being more meaningful, I guess it’s because it’s new. So why lock something that is not really important?
The only answer I understand is spite toward the min/maxers, either because people don’t want to understand them or because they feel they’re the reasons for their underachieving in the game. That will show them. 
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i know you guys crying about it will get it nerfed. that doesn’t mean that i won’t speak out against it because i disagree with min/max culture.
Even if other people could do that - it would still have ZERO impact on my gameplay.
If I find value in sticking with a class/covenant/faction - then I can still make the decision to do so and get that value without anyone else making that same commitment.
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I see exactly where you’re going. You’ve described the present game perfectly. Classes or specs are nerfed to “encourage” players to waste their time rerolling another class or gearing for an off-spec to be their new main.
When did it become a virtue to be bad? And more important, when did it become a virtue to try to force other people to be bad? What moral imperative is behind this coercion you feel compelled to push?
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you do realize i mained a prot pally in vanilla? because i liked the flavor even though it sucked. it really really sucked to do anything. questing you could faceroll. dungeons if you had 348795394875 stacks of water. but i ultimately played a pally because of the rpg choice of being a pally. that’s why i play this type of game. i don’t want those choices taken away from me because you guys only care about numbers.
Because the benefits of that lock-in seem greater to you on a personal level than the cost of opting into it.
Players seem to forget that accountability is a thing in an RPG. Decisions should have consequences that stick, or else the choices you do make are completely irrelevant if you can simply change them on a whim.
Flexibility and accessibility are two very different things. You can have flexibility inside a covenant but still have consequences to consider. But if you want more accessibility (choices without consequence), you’re going to make any decision completely irrelevant.
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I just want to know how it objectively impacts our gameplay/value. Because I can’t see it.
If I find monogamy valuable in a relationship - I can make that choice and get value from it. Everyone else doesn’t also have to be restricted to monogamous relationships for me to get the value from my own personal relationships.
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that’s the point i’ve been trying to make. the choices should be meaningful or why have them?
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You can still make those choices. Nobody stop you. But now if you’re point is about removing choices for other people then obviously that’s just spite.
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