And having a more effective loot system available for those who want to use it and do so responsibly is enjoyable to a lot of people.
Your argument is nothing but I don’t like this so nobody should have it.
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They don’t want it. They’re just willing to not rock the boat. It is an issue with complacency. If they’re slightly more complacent than you and you want to protect yourself from thievery, suddenly you’re obligated to constantly remind your friends of the potential dangers of ninja-looting or cut yourself off from playing with them.
Master Loot poisons the social environment of the entire game. It turns every single casual pick-up scenario into a potential mine field or game of wolf. It’s so bad. Removing it costs almost nothing, there’s almost no cost associated with the loss of ML, ML isn’t even really used often by many guilds so the cost of removing it is so low and the upside has proven itself to be immense.
Honestly, at a certain point I think it is just worth leaving you with the fact that you’re simply never going to get what you want and leave it at that, because you don’t seem to be moved by logic at all.
It’s really not. Quite the opposite, your argument is that you want it consequences be damned. I’ve already laid out why it is bad for the health of the game as a whole, and you seem to continue to want it while ignoring the majority of the player-base.
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It’s a very interesting discussion every time. It boggles my mind that people seem to think that they should have a say in how others play the game. Like… My group of friends and I would like to use ML… Why in the world should anyone but us have a say in whether we choose to use ML or not.
It’s almost like they need to not only have control of their own fate, but they need control over everyone elses fates as well. Otherwise they can’t ensure their own fate.
So… you’re all cowards then? I recommend growing out of that and asking for what you want.
Wait are you serious? Are you still under the presumption that I’m asking for ML for everyone? I’m not. It wouldn’t change the pick up scenario at all, because I’ve only ever asked for it for 100% guild groups. Are you joking?
Oh I know we’re not getting it back. As I said at the start of this thread. I just find it fascinating that players like you seem to need to have control over not only your own decisions in the game… but everyone’s decision in regards to this. Your logic is quite literally a shield you use to validate your need for control. It’s… fascinating.
Anywho, I’m muting this thread. I’m too weak-willed to not keep responding. Best of luck!
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So you’re good with the raid leader just randomly saying, “We’re doing ML tonight instead of PL,” where upwards of 30 people have no say whatsoever on how loot is distributed? Master Loot was being abused. All we see on the forums are anecdotal evidence like, “MY guild was always fair about loot! No one else has ever, in the history of the game, abused the system!” The fact is, Blizzard saw how abused it was and decided to change it to make it more fair.
Is it perfect? No. I would like the choice to be able to voluntarily give up an item if it’s a better upgrade for someone else, but that can be abused, too. Such as, a raid leader forcing someone to give up a huge upgrade so a “core” member can have a slight upgrade, or they can not raid at all from that point on.
To me, this is stupid. Everyone that was in that raid contributed to down the boss that dropped the mount. GM included. Everyone should have an equal shot at it, and /roll is the most fair. The only thing your rules do is stack the deck against anyone your core group/leadership don’t see as worthy.
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I 100% assure you that you would see antics like players trying to reserve Dreadfire in PUGs, or claiming they reserved Dreadfire, or downplaying the fact that the boss is set to Master Looter as an honest mistake. This problem is so much worse in 2021 with CRZ.
We literally saw this stuff all the time. Constantly. Like, I’m literally telling you it has happened, because I’ve seen it first hand from both sides. I have literally looted items to myself after dropping a “X reserved” comment while nobody is looking to protect myself from GM tickets because “technically I said it”.
Do you even PUG? Really?
Exactly. Blizzard has the data. You do not. You do not get to say it isn’t a problem if Blizzard says it was. They have the information and they are the decider. I notice this a lot, people mistakenly think that Blizzard is legally obligated to bow to the way they think things are. It’s hilarious TBH.
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Argh! Why you do this to me Lustrois! I was trying to leave! Haha! I answered this above mate. If your RL is a tyrant like that… why would you want to play with them! They’ll be a tyrant in other regards as well.
As I’ve always said about this topic… Relationships work best when both parties are open and honest with each other, lay out expectations, and come to understandings. I see the guild relationship the same. I’d like the option to have the loot part of the relationship again please. You don’t have to partake if you don’t want it.
What part of… I want this for 100% guild groups did you not understand? Please scroll up. I even specifically referenced WoD and how I did not want that back. Are you reading my posts? Clearly not.
Ok ok, I said I’m muting and I’m muting now!
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Exactly. 1 person is greedy, 18 people just want to play the game and don’t care about the loot, and 1 person doesn’t want the raid leader to steal from them. Guess who wins? The wrong-doer. That’s a total perversion of fairness. Master Looter is fundamentally toxic to the entire game. It’s radioactive. It infects every level of social play that isn’t matchmade.
This guy isn’t getting it because he lives in a bubble.
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If it wasn’t a problem they wouldn’t have gotten rid of it. No one cares if you are using it with 100% good faith if other people are not.
Blizzard obviously got tired of dealing with the headache that it can create so they axed it.
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Your points are all extremely subjective. Players may be happy in such a system for awhile only become dissatisfied when it seems like there is bias real or imagined.
ML allowed for cliques of players to take advantage of those outside the clique, especially individuals. But more importantly it left wide open the possibility of players feeling like they were getting shafted. Which leads to tickets for Blizz to manage.
Of course those in stable raid groups don’t feel ML is a problem for their groups. These same groups abuse individual players outside the stable group, intentionally or unintentionally. People inside the clique rarely realize or understand the damage they do to those outside. Even less often do they reckon with the turnover of those on the outer circle of the clique.
Personal loot comes with its own set of problems. But it removes the possibility of loot abuse between players, real or imagined. And it drastically reduces tickets over loot. Under PL all loot belongs to who it dropped for, end of story.
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Master loot should be allowed in groups with 100% guild members. Every other instance personal loot.
Utterly subjective nonsense. Some trials were showered others were robbed and passed around.
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I’d trust my guild to do the right thing. The ONLY people that might have a case for ML would be those guilds that have a legitimate shot at a world first. Which, they get paid for, so their livelihoods are dependent on proper gearing. Even then, PL might still be the better solution, because it’s mathematically fair for every player.
So, let’s say ML comes back. It won’t, but just as a thought experiment, let’s say it does. Someone like me: I’m a founding member of Pandamonium. I’m an officer. Two of my closest friends are our GMs and raid leaders. So, ML is back and they decide to use it. Fine. I trust them. I’ve known them since 2008 and we had used ML in the past, so good. This time, though, it’s 13 years later and their opinions have changed, and while they’re still good friends, they go against what they’d normally do and decide to hand out loot to whomever they choose for whatever reason. Despite protests from anyone else. That puts me in a position of, “I don’t want to ditch my friends for a game, but I also don’t think what they did was fair.” So, I stick around, but everyone else that isn’t as close to them leaves. Now we can’t raid. We either need to recruit, and with what happened that’ll haunt the guild from that point on, or we need to join another guild and hope they don’t do us dirty.
The point of that long-winded and not very well written hypothetical is ML has ruined guilds in the past. Guilds of close knit friends have separated, friendships ruined (because if they cheat you out of pixels in a game, what else would they do), social lives upturned. For what? So you can have the decision to be a dictator or a serf to a dictator, benevolent or not?
That’s why the decision of gear was taken away. ML wasn’t abused by everyone, but it was abused enough to make the community as a whole more toxic, and a toxic community kills the whole thing.
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Are you aware that being in a guild does not preclude loot abuse, real or imagined?
Are you aware that just telling people to not take part of selfish groups, only serves to empower cliques of players to take advantage of those outside?Particularly those without a clique.
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I want ML back, raiding just doesn’t feel the same anymore 
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So we can just remove all loot from raids right? Cause not being the best form of loot means there’s no loot at all am I right?
Doesn’t that happen today?
If that’s what you sign up for, yup.
We let people keep their crap, even trash boe’s, to do whatever they want with.
And guess what, we haven’t had a single one AH’d over given to someone who needed it.
If guild groups want to use it, they should be able to. That doesn’t affect you at all. You’re really underestimating how many people care and groups ought to be able to sort out what they want. If a guild as a whole wants ML, you have the option to not join that guild.
My guild does not like PL. after it was added to the game, we tried it multiple times because of the greater amount of gear that would drop. Every single time, something would drop that the person didn’t want because of stats that were for them, but they could not trade it to someone who needed. As a group, we decided that was garbage and went back to ML. I know my guild liked it, because not only did they say that, they would remind me to fix the loot type when I forgot (which happened a lot because I am a spaz).
When I first mentioned it had been data mined that PL was getting forced on us, my guild initially said, “Meh.” I reminded them that we’d hated it every time we tried it. They didn’t care enough to say anything until the BfA prepatch hit and it was forced on us. Then the crap hit the fan. The people who’d said, “Meh,” we’re moaning and complaining just as much as I had. People are still bringing it up years later about how they wish we had ML. We had a guy quit for a few weeks this expansion because nothing would drop for him but offhands. For weeks, he’d only get loot from Innevra and it would be an offhand. Even in his vault, he’d usually get an offhand as an option. He’d have rather not get anything than keep getting offhands. Meanwhile, we had a week early in heroic where I got like three pieces of gear while most of the group got no gear at all. I felt bad. I felt like I’d screwed them out of gear even though it wasn’t my fault. I’d have much rather gotten nothing at all to ensure everyone had a chance of gear instead of literally half the loot for the week going to me.
My guild’s experience actually shows why they did this. They’ve never claimed it was to stop tyrannical master looters. They want to slow down gearing so people play longer. If someone is just getting the same piece over and over, they’re not getting other pieces they need. Their dps stays lower. It slows down progression because they don’t don’t have gear and neither do a bunch of other people in the group.
People should be able to choose what loot system they use in guild groups.
This was being used towards people who DIDN’T want to trade loot for whatever reason and people outright DEMANDING that that person give them the loot because “It’s tradable.”
This is why you can’t have nice things. As per what I just said above this quote.
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Weird it is still available where you play in Classic.