Because it makes the Horde a complete joke that it only ever can solve its internal issues with a civil war and that every time it has a problem it ends up screwing over everyone around it. If that is what the Horde is then the Alliance is right to dismantle it because the Horde is a completely dysfunctional organisation.
I don’t give a damn about Sylvanas. I care about what it means for the Horde itself.
This has been gone into detail many other times but to sum up, the guy is an ineffectual and pretentious whiner who seems to care more about his alliance buddies than than his horde allies and it is possible to not like either option.
These two things are issues I have a feeling Blizzard has somehow missed.
FWIW, I think the writers were trying to get the point across of the weakness and fragility of the valkyr with that ‘there are so few of us left now’ line.
Saying that I really like your ideas though, theyre definitely more concrete than what we got.
This has my backing, and take down Nathanos while we’re at it. It sucks, yeah, but after genocide what can ya do? We’d need another racial leader though and I’m not sure who would be a good fit. I’m leaning toward Voss- she’s a decent person while at the same time being vaguely antihero-ish.
Oh, thanks for that! Is this part of the Warcraft/WoW Diary?
Well the above link provided by Zuleika disproves as such. The Forsaken were a concept created by Metzen to play as “an evil race but as the good guy”. Go figure this lines up with my earlier evidence that sympathetic quests existed to be playable for the Forsaken back in Vanilla WoW and even with the Cata revamp (you can play a number of sympathetic quests even now).
I wonder, if the rest of the Val’kir are killed, what will happen to the rest of the Forsaken? One of the main points of the Val’kir was to keep the Forsaken numbers up since they cant procreate and Sylvanus wasn’t allowed to resurrect Horde warriors when she wasn’t Warchief. Some kind of cure or something will have to show up soon. Even if Sylvanus is stopped, the Forsaken are still going to be around and some will probably still want to try and find a way to cure their curse, maybe now they will have help from the Alliance wanting to help the Night Elves and Kul Tirans who were turned during the war.
The old Forsaken were cooler and there was sympathetic quests but the Intro to them still painted them with nefarious undertones which are imo emphasized more.
The old Forsaken quests have the same theme. As Zerde (and others) have put it, using humans as experiments for the Blight existed back in Vanilla as well.
As someone who is intimately familiar with both Vanilla and Cata questing regarding intro Forsaken narrative, the only thing that’s changed is that faction war is more emphasized. The two quests revolving collecting dusk bat pelts and the widow’s momento still exists to this day and can be played/experienced.
Edit: Agamand Mills is also a sympathetic questline but sadly got removed with the Cata revamp, that’s one major change for the worse.
He cares about his alliance counterparts because he sees the life, honor, and standards he wants for his people, and he knows them to be mostly just and honorable in their actions. And as Horde it is insulting that we aren’t doing a better job than the alliance in this. And he cares about the Tauren above all else. Moreso than the rest of the horde that are dragging him and his people into demented bloodshed, with zero honor and even a sense of damnation as they are defiled and raised as fodder. After being used as fodder for an evil that should have died a few expansions ago.
He is not ineffectual, you just want him to follow orders and propel sylvanas’ plans forward. He can’t win a Mak’gora, he would be killed (by vile trickery, most likely). His own people are questioning their place in the horde because of the damage wrought by the forsaken. He knows what happened to his own father in a similar situation to this as well. Both Saurfang and Baine know that they can’t do a direct confrontation with Sylvanas. I don’t fault them for looking for help on the other side of the battle-lines.
While I might not like it, if cleansing the horde of scourge filth requires it, I will work with all who are honorable and willing.
This kind of ties into another thread I was in talking about fracturing the dual sides narrative. Without a war to fight, there’s really no need to constantly be raising Forsaken. I figure if that ever happens, we’re better off alone as a neutral party specializing in the alchemical and medical fields. Give us Tirisfal and the two Plaguelands.
As for maintaining undeath that’s relatively simple. Forsaken have the alchemists make up salves and whatnot to slow the decay down so theyre not constantly rotting into hamburgery mess.
Back to the point, necromancy can also raise the dead into undeath but I’m not entirely sure if regular necros have the ‘oomph’ of dark resurrection like the valkyr or Lich King do/does.
This is what I’m wondering. Even a Death Knight has to use up most of their power to bring someone back to life, and it only works on someone who was recently killed.
I agree with this, Forsaken and Death Knights need somewhere to go and something to do when off duty, and it makes me think about how the Alliance will handle the Void Elves when there isn’t a need for their unstable power, or the Lightforged and them wanting to “bring” the light to the races of Azeroth like they did on Draenor.
BTW, High Priest Garrosh should totally lead the Lightforged.
Its definitely a fun thing to think about! One of the reasons why I love the Forsaken is because of the banality of day-to-day ‘life’ through the lens of something that ISN’T alive. I find it funny one can wander about UC or Brill and find Forsaken just going through the motions of such things as being an innkeeper or shopkeep. ‘Why isn’t anyone buying my pet maggots?’ ‘Would nightshade taste good in this soup?’ ‘I’ve got to get to the tailor to sew my arm back on.’, etcetera. Good storybuilding stuff in my opinion!
As you bring up Lightforged I’m reminded of something else I mused about. I REALLY dig the thought of the Light (or at least those people who speak on its behalf) not being wholly and purely beneficial. See the tyranny of the naaru when it came to Illidan in Legion and the mag’har in the current expansion. Good, nuancy stuff one can sink ones teeth into.
No I don’t and clearly you are more interested in being upset that I am not gushing over how great Baine is than you are in actually reading my post. Are you telling me that the entire Horde leadership combined is powerless to oppose Sylvanas? Clearly she has plenty of detractors. Why hasn’t Baine tried talking with them about making Sylvanas reign it in?
Nothing Baine has done has helped the Horde deal with Sylvanas one wit and it has come at the cost of several horde soldiers lives and the loss of a ship which the Horde is in short supply of at a time where they are at a very real risk of being at the mercy of the Alliance.
Then the Horde should be disbanded because it is completely incompetent as a faction and cant solve its own issues with the help of the people it as at war with. It makes every horde leader, Baine included, complete failures as leaders and woefully incompetent at managing and running a political institution.
See that is the thing ‘Team Honor’ doesn’t seem to get. I don’t like Sylvanas but we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. We are either lackeys of a genocidal villain and monster or a group of incompetent sheep who are completely incapable of actually self governance or for that matter making any decisions for themselves at all.
So join team Baine and go and show just how much of a failed institution and how pathetically incompetent the Horde actually is. This is MoP 2.0 but the difference this time is the Horde should have known better. After Garrosh the Horde should have never been in this situation again and the fact it has just shows this is an institutional problem which you can switch leaders as much as you want and it won’t fix.
You think that it us just Sylvanas and her lackeys that are the problem? The orcs walked this same path barely 2 expansions ago and the big difference between then and now is that at least some of the forsaken show a more moderate view rather than the orcs who almost completely followed Garrosh. There were a total of 3 orcs in the Darkspear rebellion and one of them was a double agent for Garrosh. It isn’t just the forsaken.
Well at any rate after the expansion, the horde and the alliance might be disbanded. I do understand the orcs walked the same path. They were put in their place. But the forsaken have been on this path since vanilla. How are we damned if we don’t follow sylvanas (I mean outside of not being able to progress)? I do agree that there are conflicts of interest, but the situation is this. The goblins are in Sylvanas’ pocket until someone replaces gallywix. Hopefully Gaslowe. The blood elves might be up for a little treason, or if this fail-cascade continues they might just defect themselves.
The Tauren are edging ever closer to leaving the Horde. They didn’t want this war, they didn’t want the previous wars. The Darkspear might still believe that false notion that their spirits chose the warchief. They aren’t going to be eager to go against a perceived loa. The Mag’har are blinded by their hatred of the draenei. Draenei that would be enemies to both the alliance and horde. What little the Highmountain have tossed in on behalf of the Horde only follows their connection to Baine. And the Highmountain may have made enemies with not only their traditional friends the nightelves, but with cenarius himself by association. The nightborne are thinking that they may have made a misstep.
Telanji wants vengeance against the Proudmoores. Rexar is strangely fixated on Jaina. Things were already fragile, but Sylvanas pushed them to the breaking point. It wasn’t a failed institution until a few bad-apples came to power. The Tauren were the first to challenge this threat and failed. Eithrigg may now be questioning the warchief in secret. And Saurfang is ready to cause mischief.
Right now, it is Sylvanas that is the problem along with those who would follow her without question, namely the forsaken. And you may be right, in the end, it may be the Horde itself. I would have liked the Horde to adopt a tribal council at the very least. But right now it may be the Horde, I would not like to think this, but that could be the case. Everything is a mess and the writers hosed us. Lorewise, the room to make a move is very small. It would have to be on the level of Rommel’s conspiracy to take out Hitler. This is a tall order.
This would not have happened if Baine were in power or Vol’jin were still alive. The system did work until the mantle was passed to the unworthy. Nazgrim would have been a better warchief in the garrosh years. Anduin didn’t even want to dismantle the Horde. But here we are.
And yea, I dont know what Thrall was thinking, Garrosh was terrible as a leader, and I find it funny that in almost every other universe/time line Garrosh was supposedly a great war hero and a good person, and we get the “dark time line” version.
Oh god, are we all part of the dark time line?!?! Is this why the story has gone off track since Deathwing’s demise? Someone go find Chromie to undo all this, maybe spark up that war with the Infinite Dragonflight that we will eventually be/have been/already are fighting?
Also, if we took direct action, we would have to admit that the war is not of our will. It isn’t of our will of course that much is clear. But this means we would have to sue for peace, and with the Horde as fractured as it is, that could be a whole new can of worms. The most obvious problem area is the Forsaken at the moment. The second area of friction is the Warchief system. We need a Council. The third area is the way the horde would divide if we took out Sylvanas. Would we be able to buy out or effectively replace Gallywix. The Alliance already tried to get rid of him and he has proven to be rather slippery.
We have a fair amount especially on the forsaken who follow Sylvanas and would do so even if it was over a cliff. Their blight weapons would put even more of a strain on Horde combat capability. We might even have to get the Alliance in to help. Realistically someone has to pull a miracle to create an opening for proper loot pinata preparation.
That is not how i interpret that. They were conceptually evil but have some good guy concepts thing as well. Not the otherway around. Ultimately the more villainous side of the Horde is now in full display.
You’re buying too much into the kool-aid. Take a step back and realize how we got here into the first place. Why was Sylvanas rarely a complaint amongst Horde over the decade+ of WoW prior to BfA? Why is Sylvanas even Warchief? Why did Vol’jin have to die? Why isn’t Thrall here? Why did Saurfang leave, etc.
This is Blizzard writing the story. With a simple change of storytelling direction/philosophy we need not experience loss at all regarding characters, culture, themes, whatever.