Not so sure if being impatient is a good reason to leave a group, Home emergency yes? people being extremely rude inside the group? Yes. But simply leaving out of impatience is a bit silly. And if people don’t want to risk being penalized or this type of situation at all they can do what is often suggested to many people for other reasons.
Use your own key. Form your own group.
But realistically, I think the best situation is to require everyone to have the key and have them all be used up. This way the leaver and bad player all get penalized.
It isn’t impatience. It’s recognizing incompetence. If a player is doing so poorly that the key can’t be completed, timer or not, why do I need to waste my time for an extra hour when I cna recognize in the first 10 minutes what type of run it’s gonna be? Why is he allowed to kill keys consequence free?
They actively chose to participate in content they’re clearly not prepared for. I’m not going to stick around the extra hour just for the key to fail anyway. RIP keyholder, vet better next time.
Did they? Perhaps they thought they was? Perception is an amazing thing, often times the worst players will actually see themselves as great players. After all they made it this far why wouldn’t they think they are good?
Then they need a reality check. And after they make their forum post and get enough ‘common denominator’ replies, maybe they’ll find the mirror. If not, oh well. Not my problem.
common denominator is possibly a logical fallacy as correlation is not always causation and therefor not observable evidence. It would take more objective measurements then that. Which is why perception is such a beast to deal with because all objective measures use our perception. In this reality you may be nothing more then the thoughts of the universe itself and everything you know could be wrong. Not saying that is the case. Point is we think we are real because we see ourselves as real and all our perceptions say so. Likewise would be true on measuring if we are good or bad at the game.
Let me demonstrate the fallacy in a way you can understand.
You are in a party and 1 of the members is bad, you remove the member and get a new person. unfortunately due to the number of bad players you just got another one. However because we are looking at common denominators this logic we are using would say it was the party that is bad and not the 2 bad players you just went through.
You claim that you are not mad, but that you think the system is flawed. OK, lets do an easy thought experiment and think about how it makes you feel.
Lets say blizzard adds an incentive for completing (i.e. not abandoning/restarting) dungeons but they don’t make any changes around leaving. Lets say that incentive reduces the number of key leavers by a large margin for the greater population, but you find that people still leave your groups.
If you still think those people that left your groups deserve to be punished, then you don’t care about the system. You just want retribution for them causing some inconvenience for you. And that’s just raging.
If you think such a system is fine, then why not advocate for that, instead of systems that punish people? Why not focus on the positive and individual growth and not get bogged down on the negative?
You say that I’m out of touch, but I think you just hate that I’m telling you the truth.
Remember, you have agency on what you want to do and who you want to play with; there is no queue system grouping you with random people.
here’s a good example on what’s wrong with this game. Had a rogue doing sub 20k on a +18. Died pretty much every other pull and somehow pulls things back to us. After I died I just said F it and left the key
And how exactly do you plan on producing a system that can tell the difference between the two, while also not being prone to being outright abused?
I dont pay my $15 a month to carry somebody that doesnt know what an interrupt is and does sub-tank damage, and im not responsible for teaching them either.
It absolutely is. If im doing any key above a 20 and theres a pug doing below tank damage or not interrupting, I absolutely am not staying in that key.
And I will make it hell for everyone else. And you can’t do anything about it.
Thats the point.
Cant be proven without being extremely obvious or a confession.
I can play bad enough to continuously wipe the group, yet you would not be able to say that it is not a legit skill issue.
The issue is we disagree on good causes. Once “good cause” becomes subjective…which it is from the get go…you will have people trolled and incorrectly punished.
Sure. But you cant prove I didnt wipe the group non stop due to being intentional or just a skill issue.
So how does this happen? In practical terms.
How does the game know you are leaving for an approved good cause or give you a penalty?
And I will ensure someone else leaves first, through actions you cant punish.
Hundreds and hundreds of keys every season since S4 BFA, and can count leavers on maybe 2 hands… I honestly don’t think I have seen a leaver since . . . . S1 DF maybe? Might even be back in SL. If people are leaving your keys so often that this appears to be a problem to you, time to look in the mirror at why people are leaving.
It just doesn’t happen regularly enough to be a problem that really needs effort putting into addressing. But you guys cried hard enough that Blizz acknowledged it and now we will probably get some poorly thought out and easily abused anti-leaver system.
First of all, many of the times I have seen people leave were not groups I have formed but others I have joined. The fact that you assume its my groups that I create is quite funny. This is an issue that has been around for a while and those that sit there and say they have never had it happen are completely full of it. The only way to have it not happen is to have a 5 man team that meets specifically at specific times of specific days and only together. This is not a solution to the problem. Life is to hectic to have to expect that from people just so you can enjoy a game. This is why there are other options available in order to form groups.
People are so quick to jump on the ones who bring up an opinion that counters theirs because many of the people vehemently opposed to this idea are some of the worst offenders. Yes I truly believe there needs to be a penalty for failure to complete aside from tanking one persons key. Being there is no penalty for it, it become more and more common. You can not deny it is a problem in any way. Just take one look at the responses of this thread and it clearly shows the problem exists.
Contrary to what you think, people can believe that a system is flawed and voice an opinion on the issue without “raging” as you so put it. Constructive criticism and constructive opinions and constructive suggestions can help make positive changes in flawed systems. This is the truth that you are having a difficult time understanding.
Not a bad suggestion. I would agree though that the current system does need some changes.
Again, people not focusing on just changing the consequences for the aggrieved and instead going straight to punishments.
If a non-keyholder leaves a key or DC’s and the key was listed in the Pre-made Group finder as “Completion” - the key should stop, throw everyone back to the beginning and allow the keyholder to fill in the missing slot and start again at the same keystone level.
If you list a key as “beat timer,” I say keep the existing system as most ppl who leave, do so b/c they dont think the key is going to get timed and/or the group is just failing and they don’t want to waste their time.
I highly doubt people just leave to troll you, there is something going on that is making them do it. Soften the consequences of the leave and this shoudlnt’ be such an issue.
I still cannot wrap my head around this perceived leaver issue.
Are people mistaking groups disbanding due to someone playing bad with people just leaving?
When casual players make their +12 group or whatever they do and invite a healer who now has to be responsible for healing/kicks/affixes/dispells/mob control/etc… while the DPS of the group are the bad players who have no concept of stops/interrupts/affixes and don’t play their class effectively at all who have 1/10th of the responsibility of your healer.
We’re gonna punish the healer for leaving?
Do yourselves a favor too - vet your groups. Don’t be scared to communicate and ask players about their classes, it’s your group. You may think it’s a nice idea to invite a 3K+ alt to carry your key but if you have a tank who doesn’t know his class or his kit and pulls 2 mobs at a time don’t expect him to stick around.
Often I find it to be unrealistic expectations. The higher you go in key level, the more likely some will have issues, and past the 15-16 mark, nothing will really be a “free lunch” as most likely cap out in the high teens-low 20s range unless they get a dynamo team every time.
I myself have KSH but I struggle in certain dungeons at 17 and have only timed a few 18-19s, there is a possibility I was carried as a tank but I find if you go in with the goal/expectation of clearing, you will also more often then not time or just miss the timer where if you go in with the goal/expectation of timing you are more prone to make blunders/mistakes that make timing hard if not impossible.
