Hell, even after being revived Frieza plays with the idea of betraying Universe 7 to defect to Universe 9, but they didn’t promise him power quick enough. And that was JUST after getting into a ‘fight’ with Goku.
Super did a lot of weird things, but the ToP did wonders for Frieza, 17, and Vegeta.
God everything after the pain arc was such a mistake.
Only Kaguya…
I don’t actually watch Naruto, I’ve only heard about it from people.
Thing is, DBZ has Dragon Balls; which are often being gathered up and used to summon a magic wish-granting dragon, who grants the good guys’ wishes to bring all those dead people back.
If WoW had such balls, and such a dragon, who could bring all those dead people back to life - including the ones who were unfortunate enough to have their souls obliterated, maybe I could eventually come to forgive Sylvanas. But so far, I’ve seen no sign of any such balls or any such dragon.
Toriyama never took Dragon Ball as seriously as Golden and Danuser want us to take their story.
Vegeta and Buu are also very easy characters to understand. Their motives are simplistic, archtypal, and easy to follow. They also have different roles in the story. They are characters with positive arcs to play off the fact that Goku, who has a flat arc, is a character that makes other characters change just by being in contact with him.
Killing people isn’t the main reason Vegeta and Buu are popular, either. People like Vegeta because of his warrior spirit and Saiyan pride, because he represents Saiyan heritage that Goku doesn’t, because he was capable of and lived up to redemptive change. Every time he fell short (hehe) he owned his mistakes and grew. Also you’re trying to draw comparisons against a world where the entire population of the earth has been killed and brought back like three times or something because of wish magic macguffins that cheapen the impact of death generally.
Sylvanas sucks because we’ve been strung along for years on the promise that it would make sense in the end. A lot of what she’s doing now feels like a departure from the character that she once was. It also feels like Sylvanas won’t be owning her mistakes. I guess we don’t know that until the end, but because of the soul split it really feels like we’re going in the direction of saying she never was who she was truly meant to be, thus we can’t really lay anything at her feet and that’s dumb.
Dragon Ball is silly. Warcraft pretends it isn’t.
Pretty much every single character in Dragon Ball’s name is a pun. I don’t understand why anyone takes it seriously as a drama rather than as an action comedy meme generator.
Because the drama that is there is actually good and simple to follow. Behind the big buff dudes punching each other in the face there’s actually a simple straight forward story with character development that’s well, simple and straight forward.
I think my other comment was unfair to the writers and it was written out of frustration due to this change of direction since bfa with the story, but they really need to stop with it. Simple and straight forward is the way to go without stringing us along where it’ll ultimately go nowhere when some answers will only be answered 3 expansions later into something like this…
It’s incredibly frustrating.
Yeah and I get that, it’s basically the fundamental basis of shonen manga (and superhero comics, and professional wresetling.)
But the simplicity also means that there’s a limit to how valid a comparison can be between things like Dragon Ball, which deliberately set out for simplicity, and something like Warcraft, which tries to present something more complex (even if it doesn’t always succeed.)
As other have pointed out, if Vegeta was in WoW he’d probably be hated. But he isn’t in WoW. He’s in Dragon Ball, which changes the context to such an extent that it’s an apples and oranges comparison.
And I get that, but there was nothing wrong with the simple and straight forward development prior to bfa like with sylvanas up to the end of Wrath or Varian before his death.
Everything after Wrath with Sylvanas was a whole bunch of nothing leading us down a hole where little to nothing was given as we witness them throwing all of their money on the popularity of Sylvanas to move the story forward with their seemingly endless abyss of mysteries within mysteries within mysteries with plans within plans among plans with plans to plans that goes on to no end.
What was so wrong with the direction and pacing before bfa?
Sylvanas’ development prior to BfA was her steadily doing more and more objectively terrible things, and in Legion she was given political power over one of Azeroth’s two most powerful factions. Her then using that power to continue to do more terrible things WAS straightforward development if you ask me.
If this was a shonen manga like Dragon Ball, or a superhero comic, or something similarly straightforward and simple, Sylvanas would have been beaten up by the heroes by Cataclysm at the latest.
Part of the problem with Sylvanas is that frankly, she faced pretty much no consequences or any significant pushback at all for her actions until Stormheim. She was a problem that was allowed to fester far, far, FAR longer than she should have been.
If she was the main villain for an earlier arc in the story who had received her comeuppance before things got too out of hand, then there would be more of a path for a compelling redemption arc. But that isn’t what happened, and now she has the crimes of almost 20 years worth of lore weighing her back, with each crime being worse than the last. That’s not a situation that lends itself well to a redemption arc, even if this WERE a shonen manga.
In things like that, typically a villain who is as far gone as Sylvanas’ best hope is some kind of heroic sacrifice where they die doing something to stop the even bigger bad. It’s either that, or they’re slain in some other way. Either way, their story ends.
The Alliance did want her head on a pike prior. The Horde was just an obstacle for them to be able to do that and even with the Horde THEY didn’t come after her head because despite her actions she still did what was needed from her in service to the Horde. That was her only saving grace there.
They didn’t though. I vividly still remember Cataclysm and MoP and the thing that irritated me the most about the war was the Alliance’s quixotic obsession with Garrosh when it was clear that Sylvanas was both a bigger threat and more deserving of retaliation.
Despite everything she did, the only one saying “Hey Sylvanas sucks we should go kill her” was Genn, and he was treated as a bloodthirsty lunatic for it until BfA.
Heck, the original impetus for renewed hostilities was when the Alliance saw the Undercity (and specifically the Apothecarium) and the desecration of one of humanity’s oldest and most valued cultural and political center for their own eyes. Fast forward a few patches and the Alliance straight up stopped caring about the fact that the Forsaken had been subjecting Alliance innocents to Naxxramas-level atrocities, even while the Forsaken were still doing it in places like Hillsbrad.
The Battle for Lordaeron should have happened shortly after WotLK. It would have been better for the Alliance and it would have been better for the Horde too in the long term.
Starting in Wrath the Alliance wanted to go at it with the Forsaken ever since Varian returned. The Wrath gate added fuel to that fire. When cataclysm came, that was made worse when Sylvanas started to expand her hold in the northern eastern kingdoms. Then, going into MoP the attention did shift to Garrosh for sure and no doubt about that, BUT at the end of it all Varian did mention that they would “cleanse” Gilneas and keep Sylvanas at bay. The Alliance goals definitely was geared towards Sylvanas and the forsaken escalating even more in Legion with even Anduin agreeing, but not wanting to do it because the obvious Legion invasion.
As for the obsession, it was Garrosh being obsessed with the Alliance.
Sylvanas did little in service of the Horde, she was a huge detriment - and therein lies the problem. Because Sylvanas could not suffer any consequence for her actions, although it would make sense, such as the other Horde leaders just straight up saying: “Whelp “Warchief” you are quite frankly doing us a huge disservice here, we will have to throw you out on the streets, good luck dealing with the Alliance on your own.” that would be the realistic outcome early on in BFA.
The only reason this did not happen, is because Sylvanas is a special pet of Blizzard’s lore crew, and because of WoW’s MMORPG setup, of course. Due to how the story is set up, it is an incredibly bad idea to make a faction leader the big bad, evil leader.
Even Garrosh faced pushback in the novels due to his own choices. He was criticized, Lor’themar straight up humbled Garrosh face to face, Cairne challenged Garrosh to a Mak’gora, and Garrosh was nowhere near as bad as Sylvanas at any point in the story.
So why in the world is it, that the leaders suddenly just accept everything Sylvanas does, it is all nonsense and it is no wonder she is hated.
It was because at the time Garrosh launched a racists fueled crusade against the Horde itself just to try and make it an orc only faction. Sylvanas didn’t do that at first, up until where she actively started to divide and imprison anyone why happens to sigh without her permission. I didn’t like bfa at all for the same reason that you don’t either. We went through the same bs in MoP and all of the other leaders was not having it at all. But, suddenly in bfa there was little to nothing. They even went so far as to make multiple characters act so dumbed down on both Alliance and Horde just to make Sylvanas look smarter.
I’ve never been a fan of Vegeta or Buu. From what you’re saying, you make a good point.
I still oppose Sylvanas and while I’m up in her air on her redeemability, she needs to answer for her crimes.
Well, presumably, that’s what the novel is for.
Hard disagree.
Ffs…
It shouldn’t be this way