Ashenvale should not be part of the agreement, it is still sacred land for the night elves. Ashenvale is not just a place, it’s sacred land for the night elves, and as such it should be protected, Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas, these are discussions worth having, but I don’t think anyone on the Horde side would like it if Zandalar–which is sacred to the trolls–and Dazar 'Alor and the area around it were to be divided up, and the Alliance would be allowed to mine resources there.
Azshara has become Horde territory after MOP, which should end the fight for resources and food, Stonetalon would probably not be such a big loss either, but Ashenvale would be one such case. Ultimately, the night elves are no longer willing to share territory or show good will after the events, at least Tyrande isn’t.
The problem in that scenario was; the Horde occupy Ashenvale. The Night Elves don’t want the Horde occupying Ashenvale.
They can solve it diplomatically, or throw dwindling military assets at the subject to oust the occupants. On the lance board, it costs more men to take a defended location than it takes to hold it. Casualties will be high. This also puts the Horde military on route to reinforcing that territory, as well as attempting to retake locations, if they are lost. That is a lot of fighting to be done, on the back of an extremely gruesome string of wars that just happened, back to back.
They also live next to Durotar- the place that suffered a famine and drought not too long ago. It also cannot obtain lumber. In the event of a second crisis, they will likely send assets back to collect what they need, just like when the Cataclysm struck.
Diplomacy can remove all military threats, if there is a precedent for taking an allocated share both sides agree upon.
It would be sour tasting, but that’s part of politics. Compromise.
The Alliance does not hold Dazar’Alor. They were ousted during their invasion. If they held Dazal’alor and negotiated it back, then I could humor the idea, but they don’t.
The Horde only got their asses kicked in Darkshore by an invading army of night elves with the help of the worgen, what do you think it would cause if Tyrande fights on, and the Alliance with it of course, it wouldn’t be the big prize from the Horde’s point of view to hold worth Ashenvale and as we know from Table Missions, not everything was in Horde hands from Ashenvale even during BFA.
It’s in no way so one-sided and you mustn’t forget, superiority doesn’t count, Tyrande alone wiped out three armies in the intro of 8.1, destroyed a whole camp in an instant. It would be crazy to provoke that as in case of a defeat the enemy doesn’t stop at Ashenvale. but marches on. and may even annex more territory.
Then Malfurion, who’s recovered, Sylvanas himself said despite her power up when Tyrande AND Malfurion are there, it looks really bad for the Horde and that was before the war, both are alive, and one is more powerful than ever, no, from a Horde perspective it would be madness to try this.
More war. If the enemy shows hostility, then that sort of defeats the point of opening negotiations to begin with.
They need lumber. Durotar might have enough food to sustain a population but it is not wealthy in lumber. It is a huge need. It’s not as if the Horde attacked Ashenvale to begin with just for funsies.
Just the same, while you are correct in that it isn’t one-sided, no asset is fool-proof. WoW is very weird in how it handles vulnerability and strengths, but it honors the rule of one in some instances; One direct hit and your ability to carry on the fight has just drastically plummeted, as well as your survival rate. Malfurion took a single axe to the back and was on death’s door, the same thing could happen if Tyrande was in the chaos of combat, only to get shot from 30 ft away by a stray arrow.
It’s not as if it’s a risk free effort on their behalf, one has to weigh risk vs reward. If Tyrande could level the Horde, she would’ve done it years ago.
But this all loops back to the crux of the scenario; how would you propose the removal of the Horde military from Ashenvale through diplomacy instead of war?
If they’re attacking, that isn’t diplomacy, that’s leveling military assets.
Therefore, rather show good will, accept Ashenvale as a holy land and in return beat out more around Stonetalon and Azshara, which are also in close proximity from Orgrimmar.
It spares troops, and both united are rather the opposite of a guarantee to achieve this victory. Even though Tyrande did not really win in 8.1, Nathanos had to retreat with his tail between his legs, he would have lost this battle in the long run, and he was the strongest present, despite Val’kyr-buff from the Horde.
I currently believe that Jaina, Tyrande and Malfurion would be enough to inflict great damage on huge armies. It would only take these three, none on the Horde side would be anywhere near equal to those three.
Quasi the monster trio of the alliance.
And we beat raid bosses often, very often, before they even show any kind of damage, it wasn’t us players, it was Saurfang who threw his axe.
The Horde holding on to Ashenvale (after killing and torturing tens of thousands of innocents) is not acceptable. They already got Azshara to get their ressources and signed a treaty not to invade Ashenvale, yet they did and they also almost wiped out the Night Elves and is currently torturing their souls.
Returning Ashenvale is not even the bare minimum, and Anduin doesn’t even care about that.
And Tyrande comes along, was attacked by a whole army, the player + Nathanos, only the Avatar made her so fast that nobody was able to hit her.
As I said before, before the terrible war, which completely exhausted both armies, it was already said that Tyrande and Malfurion together were too much for the Horde.
Now we have an even more powerful Tyrande and a really pissed-off Malfurion, and pissed-off Night Elves who are all buffed and reinforced by the Night Warrior.
They’ve already won against the entire Horde in Darkshore, it would be insane to insist on it because the price would be to risk another defeat as the enemy has more chances of victory than the entire Horde.
Once again Malfurion won’t hold back, see Terror of Darkshore. All in all, just leave Ashenvale to the night elves and take Azshara and Stonetalon for it
You can still trade for the wood and buy it from the night elves, but on your own account? No, not anymore.
If the Horde only retreats completely when you have to drive them out completely, by the way, you shouldn’t be surprised that this is not a sign of good will. Does the Horde first have to strike back militarily to see the huge injustice Sylvanas has caused?
The scenario pitched is that the Horde holds this asset and the Alliance wants it through diplomatic means. What I proposed was theoretical terms of offering that asset in exchange for something the Horde can make use of, as a diplomatic means. Just as Anduin isn’t going to bend over backwards for the Horde, the Horde isn’t going to grovel, take nothing and be happy with it.
It does spare troops, and more people living is good, but that isn’t something the Horde is in danger of suffering alone- that same danger applies to the Alliance, even moreso because they’re on the offense, they don’t have the luxury of being on defense.
Jaina, Tyrande and Malfurion are great, all-powerful entities, but so is Thalyssra, Rommath and Talanji, who has a pact with both the Loa and a Death God. Jaina, Tyrande and Malfurion are also mortals and suffer from the same risks of other living things; if it bleeds, it can die. This much was observed by Malfurion alone.
If the Alliance could destroy the Horde, it would have. The Horde exists because it has the strength to exist, it’s not living at the mercy of its enemies who hate them beyond all measure.
Lastly, Saurfang was but a man who was well trained in the martial arts. His axe was just twenty pounds of sharpened steel. There was nothing magical about what laid Malfurion low. If a melee weapon, improvised as a throwing weapon, downed Malfurion, then the rule of one applies and a prepared ranged projectile with the appropriate tip could do catastrophic damage to its target, no matter how strong they were.
Morally? Maybe not cool.
The Alliance also made an attempt on the Warchief’s life during a ceasefire whilst an infinite army invaded the world. As you can understand, that sort of puts agreements between the two parties in a twisted position. One act of war begets another.
With the end of that war, negotiations can begin, which is, again, what loops back to the scenario we were discussing.
The Alliance and Horde have been in full conflict after the four years’ pass of the battle of Hyjal. They have actively wanted to kill each other. That is open warfare, no punches held back.
The Alliance were even in a better situation, prior to the Cataclysm. The Horde, very visibly, turned the tide during that time. If the Alliance was so capable of wiping them off the map, how did they lose any of their engagements? Why have any of the Horde conflict to begin with?
Men are flawed, the mortal condition is frail and even the greatest and smartest from the pages of history die in abrupt, seemingly lowly ways. That is a universal truth of the martial arts, that Warcraft replicates.
The quote you’re referencing is, if I’m not mistaken, the discussion about Varian not ending the Horde leadership in Orgrimmar post SoO. Specifically, he’s talking about how he could possibly, but doing so would martyr them, unite the Horde and would lead to more ruin.
Not quite, Metzen said even the Alliance could do it, wipe out the Horde, but would be so weakened afterwards that it couldn’t stand up to another threat, but the fact is and remains that the Alliance would win.
AND the Alliance has been holding back since the beginning of WOW, holding back since Classic, not even trying to take action to destroy the Horde.
For example, Cata, the Alliance lost a lot of territory to the Horde, but the Alliance didn’t see itself officially at war with the Horde until Theramore, and so it mobilized; before that, you only ever fought local forces.
That’s the Varian discussion, yes. Varian knew that doing so would destroy the Alliance, as much as it destroys the Horde.
Therein lies defeat. If you have to spend so much of your army to defeat your enemy, you’ve all but depleted your sources and are no longer a functioning army, nor could you hope to build one back up in the span of a generation, you’ve just lost a war. You haven’t won, you’ve just lost your entire future and all of your land is now exposed for the taking, whether from the ambitions of your subjects, or the dangers of the outside world.
Malfurion? Tyrande? Jaina? Bolvar (pre-WOTLK scenario)? All dead. No longer assets to call upon. Stormwind? Razed. Darnassus (pre-BFA scenario)? Sieged. Northern Kalimdor territories? Burned, looted, salted. If there is nothing left but maybe one General and one Legion of soldiers, that’s defeat. You could maybe claim victory in the sense that you’ve a small population left alive, but, at that point, you’re S.O.L.
To quote King Pyrrhus from our history; “One more victory and I am undone.”.
The Alliance has not been holding back. It’s insanity to even consider the thought and downright insulting to the Alliance story to say they’ve been holding back.
The Alliance was at war with the Horde prior to Theramore. The day before the Cataclysm, they attacked Honor’s Stand. Before retribution could be carried out, the Cataclysm happened.
Fighting local forces is how war is waged on multiple fronts in the middle ages. The army isn’t one lump thrown at the target like a death ball. They are a fixed number of assets in that region, reinforced when they have casualties or they need to prioritize a particular target on that front, drawing assets away from other locations and putting them at relative risk from depleted manpower.
I will say it again, because it is factual; If the Alliance could rid the world of the Horde, it would have. The Horde would have not gotten as far as it had, if they were so superior that they could just defeat the Horde like an afterthought.
There is this conception that the alliance during BfA at least was holding back not willing to do what it takes to get military advantages and not using things such as the vindicaar.
The difference between named/demigod characters seems also unbalanced in the alliance’s favor.
Hell velen is one of those, he can literally one shot legion lieutenants and he is an old man.
Now the question would be, how much the alliance can do versus the external threats alone. because it was demonstrated that if azshara wanted she could have one shotted jaina and the rest of the alliance.
I feel like I fell through a timewarp back into Cata. This is the eternal justification for Horde, or at least Orcish, aggression into Ashenvale: they need lumber. Allow me to offer a counterpoint: other sources of lumber exist on Azeroth outside of Ashenvale. Azshara is literally just outside the gates of Orgrimmar. It’s actually closer than Ashenvale, and already has Horde-aligned infrastructure set up. It also still has plenty of trees left.
The Horde also controls Eversong Woods, which has plenty of trees. Tirisfal Glades, despite losing Brill and Undercity, has plenty of trees. It’s also safe to go there since, unlike the Horde in Darkshore, the Alliance completely pulled out of the area after the Battle for Lordaeron. Aside from the neutral Argent Crusade, the Horde controls the Western Plaguelands uncontested. Plenty of healthy, non-plagued trees there. Plenty of trees in Suramar, too. There’s also Feralas, which is a massive forest. It’s contested territory, but so is Ashenvale. And I doubt the Night Elves would fight as ferociously for Feralas as they would for Ashenvale.
“They need lumber” is no longer a valid excuse. To be honest, I don’t think it ever really was. During “A Good War” Saurfang thinks to himself about how much he’s enjoying the invasion of Ashenvale. Because unlike the war against the Legion, where the demons were almost mindless brutes of pure evil, the Night Elves were thinking beings who fought back because it mattered to them. That’s what made killing them and conquering their territory so much fun compared to fighting the Legion. That’s why he considered it a good war, which is where the story gets its name. I think it’s safe to say at this point that the Horde’s interest in Ashvenale isn’t the lumber, it’s the passion and enjoyment of defeating an enemy.
I think we come back to the same issue again, and that we’ve been saying almost since launch, that its an unsatisfying ending. It could have been good, it could have had a very satisfying ending, though that may have required a better start. They could have made the entire expansion the faction war and made it so exhaustively brutal that peace is demanded by all. They could have held off the faction war for a heal the world and contain N’zoth expansion.
Tons of could haves and should haves, but its what we got and its just… disappointing.
From a consumer perspective, yeah people would want to delete the other faction no matter what you do, what story you tell, how explicit you make it. People want to delete the other faction in the most unifying and peaceful of expansions. We as players are encouraged to feel that way, to instill a sense of belonging, loyalty, and investment in the faction you play.
From a narrative perspective, it’s completely feasible. Not everyone will be happy and thats perfectly okay. You still keep the border skirmishes, the underhanded attacks and covert operations. The narrative can retain a sense of vengeance and animosity with the wider scale war being over to satisfy those people. The war for Irish independence didn’t end in 21 of course. Sometimes you got to take a hit in the now to retain a narrative that has longevity.
I haven’t read “A Good War”, so about wherein is this? That seems amply disgusting, but I’d like to read the passage myself without actually going through the entire thing. (Reading is hard, and also the concept of spending several hours reading, not one but two, books about how awesome the Horde is at killing my favorite race is a little hard to stomach)