At the end of the day Blizzard hasn’t said anything to the state of Ashenvale because it’s not important to them. It’s never been important to them. The War of Thorns is only important when they want to rub it in the face of Nelf Fans that Tedlrassil and the vast majority of the civilian population is gone.
You stating the Horde doesn’t want Ashenvale is just as headcanon as Elesana claiming they do. The difference is we have way more a precedent to believe that they do then we do that they don’t. The Horde hasn’t been using Ashenvale for the past 3 expansions because Vol’jin made a deal with Varian who forced Tyrande to comply.
Before that they would invade, pull back and sign a treaty or trade deal, then decide to invade again. And then they signed a peace treaty in MoP and guess what? Broke it, shocker I know, and invaded again. Darkshore was been destroyed by heavy logging by the Goblins. I find it extremely suspect to believe that they aren’t doing the same in Ashenvale when they have in the past.
Agreed, having said that would you claim the person who believes that the Horde still holds Ashenvale is making up canon?
Actually, me stating multiple reasons the Horde doesn’t want Ashenvale is a series of arguments made to explain why a continued Horde occupation can not be assumed. Obviously the question remains, “On balance, are these 14 reasons to abandon Ashenvale more important to the Horde than any potential gain from holding Ashenvale.”
Only Blizzard can answer that question. But given the reasons for abandoning Ashenvale are many and varied, assuming they are occupying it is wrong.
Again, you have misread or misunderstood what is happening.
Again there is no benefit for the Horde in returning Ashenvale, they would only do their enemy a favor.
and that’s why I gave you a logical reason why they would take ressources from Ashenvale too when they did it in Darkshore.
So the Horde has been trying to get control of Ashenvale for over 10 years and you are telling me that Ashenvale is unnecessary for them?
but he’s still loyal to Anduin
they used to be, yes. But now they are only a few refugees and they still have the Draenei in Kalimdor while the Night Elves lost all of their influence in Kalimdor.
They did have control of it after the war of thorns though, it’s stated in “A Good War”. Also, since the Night Elves had absolutely nothing of Ashenvale and Darkshore in 8.1 (which plays after the follower missions), it’s safe to say that atleast as of 8.1, the Horde had full control of Ashenvale. The Night Elves only just arrived in Kalimdor in 8.1 again.
I have listed 14 reasons that the Horde would benefit from leaving Ashenvale. You’ve attempted and failed to refute 3 of them. For you to claim they don’t exist just makes you look foolish.
Your reason was neither logical, or supported by current lore.
I accept that you have conceded you were wrong to claim all of my varied reasons for the Horde to abandon Ashenvale are rooted in the Horde being nice. You should really learn how to actually admit you were mistaken, it builds credibility and makes people more prone to accepting dramatic changes of subject.
As for your change of subject. The Horde has made no attempt to gain Ashenvale since the events of Mists of Pandaria. Even the current war wasn’t motivated by an attempt to claim territory, as much as it was an attempt to cut off trade routes from Silithus. As for why the Horde may have needed those resources prior to Mists, but does not need them now, that can be explained in a number of ways. Or never explained at all. But claiming they used to want Ashenvale’s resources, is not proof that they want them now.
But for how long? He already sent his soldiers to Darkshore with the Night Elves.
The Draenei only ever had a tiny island off the coast of Teldrassil. The Night Elves have outposts throughout the entire continent, not to mention having regained Darkshore.
If the missions on the table are available prior to 8.1, than you are wrong that the Night Elves don’t arrive again til 8.1. What happens in 8.1 is the rise of the Night Warrior and the beginning of a major counter-offensive in Darkshore… but obviously there was already fighting going on prior to it.
Alot of Night Elves in Ashenvale trying to kill you.
This has never been an issue for the Orcs before. There is only a single clan that doesn’t revel in feeding the beast within and seeking a warrior’s death. And they’re over in EK.
Bound to be a sticking point in any attempts to turn this temporary armistice into a permanent peace.
Assuming the Anduin doesn’t use his status has High King to strong arm Tyrande into giving it up the way Varian did with Azshara.
No permanent Horde settlements exist in Ashenvale so logistically holding it is a nightmare.
Orcs builds their huts fairly quickly. And they’ve held an entire logging settlement for multiple years before.
Homeless Night Elves make Thrall and Baine sad.
This is blatant headcanon. Neither of them have ever even hinted towards their opinion on Ashenvale.
Satyrs, more trouble than they are worth.
See my response to .1
Dryads, super annoying.
See .5
Crazy Furbolgs make terrible neighbors.
Etc.
Hard to sleep with so many floating night lights always lingering around.
As showcased in A Good War the Whisps tend to avoid the Horde unless directed to act as spies.
Orcs hate trees.
But they love lumber.
Distinct odor of cat urine.
This is hardly even worthy of being a point. As several of your others.
Messed up rivers. Seriously, water flows from higher elevation to lower elevation, so how exactly does a river start in Mount Hyjal to the North and then flow south to that chain of hills that separate Ashenvale from the Barrens?
the logistics of a magic forest don’t matter in a world of magic where Orcs are all invasive alien species from another planet. Why would they care about the flow of a river?
It’s simple: The Horde gains nothing from returning Ashenvale to the Night Elves, they don’t benefit from it. If the Alliance offered them a different zone in exchange, then maybe.
It’s common sense that if the Horde has both control of Ashenvale and Darkshore and we only know that they are taking ressources from Darkshore, they would do the same in Ashenvale.
They have already been dealt with as of 8.1
Doesn’t make sense because they can have both peace and Ashenvale as of 8.3.
They took over the Night Elf settlements
Sad enough to spit on their own soldiers giving their lives to previously conquer that zone?
every zone has these minor threats that can easily be dealt with. That could happen in the questing experience when the zone gets updated as a horde only zone.
and these are all very questionable and you know it yourself
Happy now ?
But it still comes as a nice extra in addition to driving the enemy to extinction. Again, see what they are doing in Darkshore.
If he has to decide between Anduin and Tyrande, he’ll respect Varians wish and go with Anduin.
Darkshore is pointless though since the Horde can now attack from Ashenvale too.
I mean we arrive to a Darkshore that is entirely Horde controlled, not contested at all.
I’d even go so far as saying they’d be concerned if it did make sense. Water is still flowing down from chunks of land in Nagrand and they seem perfectly content with it. Thrall does at least.
Well we disagree about the state of Ashenvale. Even if it’s just contested that’s important.
I disagree again. Horde occupied? Yes. Uncontested? No. The whole reason Tyrande and the gang go there is to reinforce the current resistance forces and turn it into a proper counter-offensive.
I see, rather than accept the correction about standards of evidence or the appropriateness of forum goers writing canon that you are now attempting to address my various points 1 by 1. Unfortunately you’re doing a bad job of it.
See answer to number 1,5,6,7 provided below.
Your hypothetical scenario is an interesting one, but really all your saying is “But what if it wasn’t?”
Sure, if it proves to not be a sticking point, then I’ll remove it from the list.
The question isn’t whether they could, the question is whether they would want to. Good job, you’ve proven they could.
Actually, this argument isn’t about Ashenvale, it’s about homeless night elves. It is based on Thrall and Baine having displayed empathy multiple times in the past. Not headcanon.
All four of these situations you attempt to dismiss by claiming it didn’t stop them in Vanilla are still reasons to avoid Ashenvale. At the time of Vanilla they were insufficient reasons to avoid Ashenvale entirely. And even then, logging was something we saw happening towards the eastern most edges of the forest, with their main encampment in the forest itself one that was heavily fortified agaisnt these threats.
As of Mists of Pandaria that changed.
Agreed, spooky light ghosts spying on you is a reason to avoid Ashenvale.
Either they’ve been getting their ‘fix’ from someone else for the last three years, or their taste for the brown hard stuff has cooled.
Sorry, cat piss smells bad, large cat piss on diets fed primarily with game meat smells really bad. There are a lot of wild Nightsabers. Orcs and Tauren have keen senses of smell. It would be like living in a litter box, except kitty litter is designed to absorb sent, and wild cat musk is designed to linger.
The Horde is a faction that reveres shaman, which commune with the elements. When water elements are hopped up on forest magic and behaving strangely, it’s bound to be unsettling.
Reason 15, an abundance of Kal’dorei ghosts. Living Night Elves are annoying enough, dead night elves are worse.
Reason 16, the introduction of vast arcane resources pledged in support of the Horde, lowers the need for resource acquisition across the board, including the inferior and expensive lumber found in Ashenvale.
This has been canonically determined to be false based on the mission table.
This is a “sunk cost fallacy.” My response is to say that Thrall and Baine have empathy, and the common sense to realize that losing more lives doesn’t honor the lives already lost.
Yes. And when there is a worthwhile reason you address these minor threats.
As I’ve pointed out, you’ve failed multiple times to provide a worthwhile reason.
They’re not trying to drive the enemy to extinction. Did you stop playing after War of Thorns?
This amounts to another failure to provide a worthwhile reason.
Prior to the Horde players spending half an hour of expressing mild discontent on the PTR forums there were actual Death Camps for torturing and killing off survivors in Darkshore.
So extinction was pretty clearly on the to do list.
In fact, I’ll go a step further. This wasn’t just “not included” this was “actively removed.” This isn’t just not canon, this is definitively not canon.
Elesana, I’m going to hope that your argument that the current Horde is trying to drive the Night Elves to extinction is based on a better source than a non canon event unrelated to the current peace treaty.
We have no indication of the state of the Night Elf occupied areas of Ashenvale during 8.1. We never go to Astranaar or any of the places the Night Elves were occupying or fighting for in Ashenvale, so cannot say that the Night Elves had nothing there at the time.
Well you know it’s weird, because those follower missions play in 8.0 and if there were supposed to be Night Elves in Ashenvale in 8.0, they would probably be all dead as of 8.1 because we arrive at a fully horde controlled Darkshore at first, and for me it doesn’t make sense that Darkshore is fully Horde controlled, then Ashenvale contested and the Barrens etc. Horde controlled again.
Malfurion and the Night Elves that show up with Tyrande in “Terror of Darkshore” came out of the forests, and there was nothing the Horde could do to stop Malfurion. As we don’t have any indication of its state, for all we know the Night Elves cleared the Horde out of Ashenvale before returning to Darkshore.
Do we have any reliable source for that though? In “A Good War” it’s stated that the Horde got full control of Ashenvale, where do these Night Elves come from then? I was under the impression that they all got to Darkshore by ship
This was fun to read two “nelf” fans showing a lack of understanding of the lore was great. Remember kids if you want the full story of the game play or read up on the other factions otherwise you are gonna argue that baine is the next garrosh and that’s just embarrassing
“Terror of Darkshore” plays in-game at the end of both the Alliance and Horde introductory questing to the Darkshore Warfront.
A Good War does not state that the Horde got full control of Ashenvale. The Horde doesn’t even leave an occupation force at Astranaar. They just marched through Ashenvale as quickly as they could.
The player does for the warfront proper itself. The Army of the Black Moon comes from the trees in “Terror of Darkshore.”
The Horde dismantled their forces at Stonetalon after the Horde leveling questing there.
Last described in the mission table missions the Night Elves were fighting the Horde in these areas. We haven’t gotten an update on their states since.
The Alliance get a mission to defend Astranaar, so we’re not really sure what the current state or the aftermath of the mission table missions are case by case.
