Nothing has changed about the fact that it would be a huge disadvantage and out of character for the Horde to return ashenvale.
You’re basically saying that the Horde would do it because they’re such good people, and we both know that this is not true at all.
Ohwell, maybe the Night Elves can reclaim it in the next faction war, or lose hyjal too.
Enough to chase the Horde out of Darkshore. And the math really hasn’t changed.
In game lore indicates they do. There was a cutscene about it and everything.
But you’re neither Thrall or Baine’s hated enemy.
That amounts to you having very lame and lore inacurate objections to 3 of my 11 given reasons. Since your standard was for there to be 1 reason, I feel satisfied that you will now realize your position is not canonical.
Sure, if you were writing the story, you could write it so that the Horde decides to keep Ashenvale for any of those reasons. Hell, I’ll write one right now. Ashenvale is home to a rare type of flower that can be milled into a gas that makes voices go really high and squeaky. They are needed so that Horde college students can have funny voices while at Horde frat parties.
But, neither of us are writing the story, and until the people who are writing the story actually say the Horde is keeping Ashenvale because of ‘food’ your position is noncanonical. Might be fun to discuss as theory, but so long as you’re peddling this as canon, you’re going to keep getting corrected.
Just until they have recovered so they can start another attack, history repeats itself.
Thrall and Baine are 2 out of many leaders, and thrall attacked Ashenvale too in the past so it’s only Baine left.
Have you ever been in Darkshore? The Horde is taking every ressource it can there, same will go for Ashenvale if you use some logic.
So your position is that they don’t want peace now, because they’ll likely want war later. I’m afraid that logic doesn’t hold up.
And yet they were the two I mentioned and the two you claimed considered the Night Elves hated enemies. We’re not talking about the other leaders.
I have. The Horde is taking resources as part of a “warfront” and using those resources to fuel a war. There is no warfront in Ashenvale and currently no war. So if you apply a little context, you’ll find your logic doesn’t hold up.
Reason 12. The Cenarian Circle and the Horde’s own druids are going to be really whiny and complainy if we stay in Ashenvale.
I’ll remind you, you asked for 1.
I don’t see why the Blood Elves would care about risking everything to hold a forest on an entirely different continent.
When did Thrall attack Ashenvale? I always thought the Warsong were acting out of his control.
Then maybe he should have sent some “”"""“good”""""" horde to maybe kill them all?
I thought the warchief had supreme executive privilege and all that nonsense.
These 2 leaders do not make the decisions when it comes to returning Ashenvale to the Night Elves, and we don’t even know if Thrall and Baine would just gift land away without getting anything in return because I highly doubt it.
And who says they aren’t using Ashenvale’s ressources to fuel said war?
The Horde’s own druids didn’t really care about burning down Teldrassil along with its citizens, so why would they care about staying in Ashenvale.
They aren’t really risking anything though. They are at peace with the Alliance while they still have control over Ashenvale, that means that the Night Elves would have to attack the Horde alone to try to reclaim it which is obviously not going to end well for them.
I am assuming that Ashenvale due to its ancestral importance to the Night Elves is not going to be something the Alliance just hands over willy nilly in a peace treaty. It is likely something Anduin Wrynn, despite every ones hatred of him, won’t compromise on. Therefor the Horde refusing to leave it would basically be violating the terms and thrust both factions back into hostilities. This would put Silvermoon at risk, which is why I said the Blood Elves aren’t going to be demanding the Horde keep Ashenvale, and neither would Baine or Thrall. So this opens up the question, who in the Horde is going to be demanding Ashenvale? The Allied races? Rokhan?
I mean I don’t blame you for your low expectations and lack of hope for anything positive, and it would be nice for a tweet or something to settle the matter. But so far there is lore reasons to assume Ashenvale will be kept by the Night Elves in some way.
The thing is that Anduin doesn’t gain anything from demanding back Ashenvale while it would be a severe risk at peace with the Horde if he demands it back. He could try to give them another zone for it, but the Horde definitely won’t give up Ashenvale without anything in exchange. They got Azshara in exchange for Ashenvale previously, they will want another zone now to give it back again.
As long as there isn’t anything that confirms or atleast hints at the Night Elves regaining Ashenvale, I’m not going to assume that the Horde will just suddenly be nice guys and gift away lands they fought hard for.
He also risks severely alienating the Night Elves, and by extension risks fracturing the entirety of his faction, if he concedes it. We already saw Tyrandes refusal to sign it without proof of Sylvanas death.
Well, when we take into account the mission table, there is nothing to say the Horde have control of it. According to the table missions it was actively being fought over throughout BfA.
I’m happy to see that you’ve conceded you were incorrect to claim these two believed Night Elves are hated enemies. I know, I know, you didn’t really. But you hastily changed the subject and moved the goalpost, and that’s probably as close as you get.
The topic is whether those 2 leaders represent a reason to withdraw Horde presence from Ashenvale. As those 2 leaders represent a significant portion of the council, and are held in very high prestige among the Horde, they do. As for you having doubts, again, you’re not a writer, don’t care.
If your proof that they want Ashenvale’s resources is “maybe they’re using them” then you don’t have proof.
Citation needed. I’m not taking your word for it or using your fantasy in place of actual lore.
Reason 13. The orc navy uses iron ships now, the need for lumber is significantly reduced making less dangerous supplies better able to meet their needs.
But those are only the few night elves that are left, and only the Night Elves are screwed by this treaty. Other races are just fine. He can easily go without the Night Elves if he has to risk peace with the Horde just for them.
And even if we take the mission table into consideration, it would be the Night Elves attacking Ashenvale since the Horde has taken control of it. That means if a peace treaty is made, the aggressors have to withdraw their forces from the lands of the other faction, therefore the Night Elves withdrawing from Ashenvale.
yet they are only 2 out of many, and we still don’t know if they would return Ashenvale which would be a disaster for the Horde.
But I have seen how the writers operate in the past 15 years.
and you are saying that they are just sitting there in Ashenvale not doing anything with it when in the past decade, they always wanted the ressources.
There were horde druids participating in the war of the thorns.
And so what? Lumber can always be used in other ways, just as the new land that was gained to build things, food, water etc.
Still not an argument. Also another assertion you can’t support with lore, how would returning Ashenvale be a disaster when there is no established need for their resources and they’ve been doing fine without them for the past 3 expansions?
Does not qualify you to write.
Shifting the burden of proof is a logical fallacy. You prove they want the resources now, or you drop the point.
Good job, doesn’t prove that they want the Horde to occupy Ashenvale.
And so we’re up to 13 reasons for the Horde to withdraw. You claimed you needed to see 1 provided to accept it as a viable possibility.
Reason 14. Druidic magic can grow huge swathes of vegetation in moments. Voodoo and goblin science can bring about rapid changes to life forms. Rather than cut down slow growing ‘old growth’ forests in Ashenvale, the Horde has the resources to produce higher quality wood in greater abundance in their existing territory.
There are enough left to have retaken Darkshore and parts of Ashenvale. He also risks alienating the Gilneans, as seen already, if he screws over the Night Elves. Like I said, the Alliance already seems to have the seeds of division in it and this is without any mention of Ashenvale. I just don’t see Anduin doing it.
In Siege of Astranaar, the Night Elves have control of the town already. The Horde mission is to attack it, the Alliance one to defend it.
As showcased by the current team. Literally anyone can write. There are no qualifications needed to be a writer. And any garbage can get published. Twilight and 50 Shades exist.
How so? How would Horde members feel about their leaders gifting away lands they have fought hard for and gave their lives for?
Cmon if they wanted the ressources from Darkshore and can get even more of them in Ashenvale, there is absolutely 0 reason for them to not take them.
If Horde druids are fine with destroying towns and cities and killing innocents, they will be fine with occupying a zone they fought for.
Because all of your reasons can be combined into saying that “The Horde will return Ashenvale because they are friendly” which we both know isn’t true, especially not to the Night Elves.
Well, it’s only the Night Elves and they are after Sylvanas, not the Horde. They are also going to Hyjal now that Ashenvale is Horde territory.
So it’s a 50/50, but the one that last had full control of the zone would be seen as the defenders, which is the Horde and they would be favored in a peace treaty.
You are incorrect in this context. Blizzard can write, and decide who writes, for their intellectual property. Anyone else can write headcanon or fanfiction. This thread is mostly Elesana’s head canon, over in World’s End Tavern, we can get fan fiction.
If Blizzard hired you, Elesana, or even myself, to write. We would then be qualified to write, though the quality of the written product may not improve.
Well an argument presents facts or reasoning in support of the position under contention. The point under contention is whether Thrall and Baine would want to see Night Elves homeless and whether their desire to note see Night Elves as homeless counts as a reason to return Ashenvale.
Your argument, “there are other people who might, though I can’t think of any at the moment” does not address the point under contention. Thus it’s not an argument.
“Aww c’mon” is not proof.
I understand that is your opinion. Unfortunately it fails to take into account the events that lead up to that assault, the events that have happened since that assault. So it’s not a compelling opinion.
Incorrect. My reasons can be divided into three basic categories which you’d understand had you been reading them. They are “Ashenvale is a bad place to live” “Ashenvale is unnecessary, please refer to your total failure to prove otherwise” and “The Horde is nice.”
You’re standard for who is qualified is just as headcannoned as anything else said in most of threads in SF. Wether or not Blizzard wants to hire Elesana means very little.
My standard for qualification is an objective legal standard seated in intellectual property law. You have misread or misunderstood what I have said, I suggest you go back, reread and try again. Or don’t.
Those are still seeds of division, and King Greymane shows strong sympathy towards Tyrande. Let’s not act like the Night Elves are just nothing either, they’re a big part of the Alliance. Like, it’s the main Alliance nation in Kalimdor. Anduin losing them is not some small thing for the Alliance.
That’s not really how it works to me. The Horde never had control over it, ever. Like, if they lost any control they had possibly gained during the War of Thorns that fast, then you can’t argue they really had any control at all to begin with.