Paladins, both Retribution and Protection

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

I know this to be true, because that was my number one gripe about vanilla, people like you

People like me who care about being the best they can be and playing with like minded people?

So your biggest gripe was that people didn’t invite Ret Paladins to progression raiding or realm firsts because their DPS was bad? Or your biggest gripe is that’s what we’ll do in Classic?

They all work fine, and you can complete all the content fine

Yes, because there’s 39 other people in a raid. Of course any spec can complete all the content. That doesn’t make them good, and it certainly doesn’t mean they “work fine.” They don’t work fine. One of them lacks a fundamental, necessary tool for tanking in raids: taunt.

Since your ability of completing the content is not really affected by their play-style

It is, though, because I do progression raiding and realm first races. Taking a lower DPS spec affects me. Just because it doesn’t affect you, or casual raiders, or PUGs, or whatever, doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect ME.

Bringing a single ret paladin instead of a rogue, at MOST, will add 1-2 seconds to the boss time on a 1 minute fight… that’s pretty much meaningless.
That is the reality of the situation.

That’s 1-2 seconds per boss fight only on fights that are 1 minute long. Not every fight is 1 minute. Not every fight will be done on the first attempt (especially during the realm first race). There’s also several bosses in each raid (excluding Onyxia). That doesn’t include trash time in between.

It also makes the game less diverse in the ways you can play it, which I think is overall bad for the game. Variety is the spice of life.

I don’t care about variety. I want to kill bosses and get epic loot, not experience a variety of playstyles happening around me.

13 Years too late.

Classic isn’t even out yet. What the hell do you mean 13 years too late?

Not that I am looking to provide any excuses, only that I am pointing out that if a class build CAN meet the raid average requirement then it’s not a hex upon the raid group because the player is indeed contributing what’s needed to pass the encounter.

It is a “hex” upon the raid group when their spec choice is a significant DPS loss over a better spec.

Just because they meet the minimum doesn’t mean they aren’t contributing less than a better spec.

That has been my position throughout, and I maintain that argument. Just because you can beat the enrage timer with a Ret in the group doesn’t mean Ret is good.

Given that there are also players who’re playing higher DPS classes it becomes an even smaller point of focus.

That doesn’t make sense.

Just because others are playing better specs doesn’t make Ret good.

Sure if that player really and genuinely likes that class then AWESOME! Lets get this guy some gear! However expecting players in guild to play a class because “Min-maxing”, that’s a proven recipe for player burnout.

No, buddy, I just invite players who are already playing the right class/spec. I wouldn’t invite a Ret Paladin then tell him to spec Holy. I’d say “Sorry, we aren’t looking for Ret Paladins.”

Correct, but guild morale is very important because it keeps players playing. I would rather have the guys and gals that are having FUN because they’re playing the build / class they love most.

Same. That’s why I’d invite people who play better specs so we can kill bosses faster and improve morale.

Yeah but it the reverse, inviting you doesn’t ruin my fun

I don’t care. You’re not entitled to join my group just because you get upset if I don’t invite you.

The problem here is, YOU are the only one here who’s fun is reliant on such specific parameters that are totally irrelevant for you to achieve your goals.

They’re not irrelevant. You haven’t really been paying attention.

Higher DPS is necessary for the kind of content I want to be doing. Just because it’s not necessary for your PUG MC run doesn’t mean it’s not necessary for my realm first KT kill.

And just to be clear, I’m definitely not the only one. If you think that’s the case, I think you’re in for a rude awakening.

And P.S. you should care about other peoples fun. You are human, and can empathize with other humans. We are kind of getting to the root of the issue

Other people’s fun is not my problem.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

Yeah, I overall have a problem with your selfishness in a community gaming atmosphere.

And yeah, I don’t think a selfish attitude breeds good communities

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

Yeah, I overall have a problem with your selfishness in a community gaming atmosphere.

Say the person expecting others to bring a Ret Paladin just so their feelings don’t get hurt. Spare me.

[Auddoras-stormrage]

Hybrids have a tax that is correct.

Blizzard made them more complex and harder to attain full potential of those classes.

Harder to attain as in the correct gear needed, two gold sink professions(which would require a max lvl alt), and more theory crafted needed.

Pure classes will have easier time getting gear, easier to understand, only needs one gold sink profession, no alt required, and much faster to reach full potential.

The hybrid classes are more for healing in the beginning but has a lot of depth in other areas as time moves on. Just requires more than a pure class.

Is it possible to reach up there with dps. Yes, it will be a long journey though. Don’t expect to do it in MC/BWL/AQ. You most likely be heals until you get the right gear and have the two gold sink professions max out.

A lot of time spent, gold spent, a lot of trial and error. Mostly for the very elite of players to accomplish the feet not meant for everyone.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

Doesn’t have to be the case. You can dps as a hyrid and make the minimum raid dps checks just fine. You can pull your own weight.

Why?
A. You can meet the dps requirements while at the same time enjoying your playstyle

B. You bring unique utility that can either help save wipes or provide buffs that narrow the dps gap slightly…and you don’t compete for the exact same gear as other dps classes.

As long as you don’t go crazy with it… you can bring the player and not the class spec.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And I think this mindset is better overall for the community.

[Auddoras-stormrage]

True you can but it’s for ppl that want the same as a pure class.

If they want more dps as like a pure it’s more to put in. That’s all I am saying.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

lol spell batching is coming back to Classic so mashing your X button WILL work just like it did back on retail Vanilla

but don’t take my word for it - just listen to the Paladin who wrote the original blue stickied Reckoning Guide back in 2006…

World of Warcraft Forums

[Baconn]
Reverends of Swagger
120 Human Paladin
“Normally if you’re sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it’d be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge.”

PS these are DPS parse tests that myself and countless other players run against raid bosses in lieu of target dummies as a way to simulate a raid boss fight so plz git gud bro

but we don’t have to run these videos anymore as we now have a DPS spreadsheet to run it for us

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1avNLAbTb7bgsI_pYHK6xz9g8LBCLZvn94c_FfqF8pnc/edit?usp=sharing

the videos are just there to shove down the throats of people like you lol

[Araethe-dalaran]

I don’t know whats more appalling, the fact you pretend to know the technicalities of how it works or ignoring the premise there is more to claim its just spellbatching.

You’re nothing more than the anti-vax doomsayer of wow.

Also testing damage on raid bosses? You really do have no idea of how proper testing is done do you? You seriously are the LFR hero version of someone who does actual theorycrafting. So pathetic. No wonder people distest you.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

lol are you also denying that it existed in Vanilla?

Published on Aug 8, 2006

originally published on warcraft movies on 2006-02-24
https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=15930

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

run the spreadsheet oh great theory crafter of WoW and prove us all wrong

[Araethe-dalaran]

Congratulations? You have the equivalent of a guide without actual testing data that fits any actual scientific model, nor would be accepted as credible data.

You are the equivalent of an anti-vaxxer saying they have proof of scientific credibility while everyone else pities youre insanity.

I could deal with the others appeals to emotion and human psyche. This however, is straight up distasteful and you should be ashamed to say youre a theory crafter.

[Shimy-khadgar]

Hybrid classes don’t fit into speed-running guilds that are popping swiftness potions to get a 30 minute BWL full clear… that doesn’t mean a paladin wont be able to find a raiding guild to take him.

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

No, no one else should care about other peoples fun however in an MMO outside of the guild/friends level of grouping the majority do not care about your feelings. They want it done, Spec A is better then Spec B by a large margin therefore there is no credible reason to take you without setting another factor.

Who raids outside of a guild? I guess some people pug, but why would you do that? Why would you subject your self to that kind of play?

That’s like pounding your hand with a hammer and then wondering why it hurts.

[Araethe-dalaran]

A lot of people will, of course the majority will use guilds however, depending on the size of the server given the current social norms of today. We will see a good amount of pugs for people’s main characters or alts. To assume everything will be as it was in classic 2004-2006 or even remotely genuine is absurd.

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

A lot of people will, of course the majority will use guilds however, depending on the size of the server given the current social norms of today. We will see a good amount of pugs for people’s main characters or alts. To assume everything will be as it was in classic 2004-2006 or even remotely genuine is absurd.

Pugs have always existed, that’s nothing new.

Will pugs be even remotely comparable to guilds who’re actively raiding? Not even close, and that’s what these discussions are about; guild raiding.

I really don’t care about pug raids, they’re there for people who want to subject them selves to that miserable hell.

I can 100% see pug raid leaders rejecting people based on their class / spec because most pug’s are filled with idiots, and that’s something that has always been and never will change.

Meanwhile back at camp, who gives a damn about pug raids because most people are not going to do that if they intend to raid on their main character because trying to progress using pugs is really really really stupid and ineffective.

[Araethe-dalaran]

Doesn’t matter, people are people. Unless you have a guild master who actually understands that notion that hybrids have other purposes, fills a niche, and exists to relieve stress from another portion of the raid. Then the majority will reject hybrids such as Ret because they are subpar damage and offer little of anything overall depending.

If the raid does not require extra utility, off healing, off tanking, or anything a hybrid offers there is zero reason to bring one. Why would a raid lead give a bis item to a hybrid over another more helpful player number wise? There is far more to raid effectiveness then output, however when all you really need to cover is output in some situations then why bring them?

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

I have been playing with the same group of people for over 20 years now. I will have no problems getting a slot as a hybrid DPS if that’s what I wanted to do…

I do plan on healing however this time around instead of maining a hunter again.

Most of these people crying out that “you must min-max” are not a guild leaders who have to reliably fill raid slots.

Getting ANYONE who will show up on time and reliably is huge for Vanilla raiding.
Getting some one that will also show up with their consumables rather than expecting that to be provided is even better.
Getting some one that will do both of these and knows the fights or will at least pay attention to do the encounter mechanics is also massively important.

If you can get all 3 of those, I really don’t care what class / build they’re playing as long as they’re decent at it because the DPS requirements of Vanilla PVE is very generous.

In addition to this, there are plenty of E-peen flexers out there that you can pick the best of the best of them if your guild is in need of a slot or two filled.

By the time you’re ready to go, no matter what the situation your raid will have more than enough overall DPS to complete any encounter so long as people are not literally sleeping on keyboard.

[Araethe-dalaran]

ok? You really aren’t understanding the point that was made. If you are going to do what you just wrote then why are you on the forum arguing on these topics if you live in a bubble where it does not affect you? The point was people have changed and other generations are now included into the gaming pool that will play classic. We will see more pugs, and more action taken for and against hybrids.

I mean anecdotal evidence does have it merits at very specific moments but that isn’t one of them. Even if people are forced to bring a hybrid to raid, it does not magically mean they will reward the hybrid for their time. Again why give a Ret BiS weapon if its technically a much smaller improvement to raiding then giving it to another class? Of course people will gear hybrids in raid, I am not saying that but when Player X receiving an item empowers the raid far more then Player Y with the same item deemed BiS. Why would Player Y ever receive it first? Your statements only work in confided groups of people which is fine, people always have and always will do that. I am talking majority, not minority.

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

The point was people have changed

Have they? Have they really? I have been around a very long time and as convenient as it may appear to claim that things have changed, the truth is nothing really changed.

The world is a shell game, the prize just moves around the board. Any way, best of luck with your argument against things that will not impact you at all in any way ever.

[Enginrin-dalvengyr]

Were paladin really that bad; as bad as the the group 2 paladin claim?

Nope, those claims are based on their experiences which they probably couldn’t perform at the level of those great paladins that were gods in their play style.

There were a lot of people who under performed at the classes they played and blamed the class itself.