Paladins, both Retribution and Protection

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
184

This is precisely my point… It’s vanilla it’s not like we’re playing Donkey Kong at level 50 or any other unbeatable 80’s arcade coin muncher… Vanilla Raids are designed to be kinda challenging while still beatable with a very wide variety of raid compositions…

A few hybrid DPS players are not going to hold us back. The DPS requirements of Vanilla PVE are very generous, and were never the point of failure in any Vanilla raid encounter that my guild ever wiped on. 100% of our failures were regarding 40 different squirrels who’re either partly drunk or just not paying attention… When we’re all focused things usually went really good.

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185

I get your point of view… I simply do not subscribe. I don’t think that builds the best community. And I do think it contributes to the toxicity… but like you accurately described, it is not the only factor.

All content can be completed with bringing in hybrid specs. So there being raids is a mute point.

My goal, as with any game, is to have fun… and I want other people to have fun too.

The dps requirements are so low in vanilla wow, you can easily get away with an all hyrd dps crew if you wanted to. All dps spec can meet the minimum dps requirements. Would I actually do that? No… that would not be practical.

But I will not hesitate bringing about 2 ret pallys, and a few others. Probably no more than two of each type… because their utilities start to have diminishing returns.

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186

Truth!

Patchwerk was by no means a DPS check, it was more of a mechanics and healers fight.

Regardless of this, people LOVE to link patchwerk DPS figures… I do not remember the EXACT figures, but I remember the typical raid compliment of time expected something like 450 DPS per DPS player…

That’s so low that even the most anemic build of Vanilla can do that fight and be contributing a fair share.

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187

https:// wowwiki.fandom. com/wiki/Patchwerk_(original)

9500 dps minimum to kill him in time.

If you have the equivalent of 23 dps in the fight(very generous)… it is a 413 minimum dps.

And you’ll have most of your raid do significantly more than that.

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188

See that’s my point, and it’s just one fight among many where the DPS is really not a point of real concern so long as the players are not total lab rat rejects.

BUT OH NO, HUR DUR, GOTTA MIN-MAX THA DPS PLAAZ…

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189

god you are pathetic with your trolling

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It’s actually more along the lines you don’t actually understand how any of the math works or math works in general. Modern simulations run a minimum of 10,000 iterations into an average.

You playing on a private server, slapping random things is not testing. The whole belief you have any logical authority of paladins is actually disturbing.

Like the overwhelming vast majority of the reason people laugh at you is because you seem to have this delusional about authority you think you have over this class’s dps aspect within classic wow. What makes it even more apparent is when you don’t understand the very basic concepts of how these tests actually work and the actual practice of going about them.

Also Blizzard has given credible proof your /sit thing or whatever will not work in classic period, so like enjoy auto attack leveling to 60 I guess.

191

A ret paladin making use of ALL his class abilities while using Nightfall in a raid was a solid contributor.

The ret paladins that ignored all of their class abilities and stood there doing nothing but auto attacking to proc Seal of Command were pretty useless(this seemed to be most of them).

Prot paladins could tank 5 mans well, but had to be careful of anything that could drop threat because you didn’t have a taunt to grab it back. The Butcher in Scholomance is a good example.

192

Trolling is stating the truth? This is news to me.

Prove me wrong. I have done gnomer millions of times for it. I done it until dungeon cap with zero drops.

I can even log on my account so you can say hi to my druid.

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193

You were talking about people who min/max being bad players because they pick classes that do more damage instead of “playing the mechanics as intended.”

If you mean doing the boss mechanics, then the point of me saying it’s vanilla is to remind you that the fights were not mechanically challenging. If you can have a player who does mechanics properly, why wouldn’t you also have him playing a better class?

You act like the two things are exclusive to one another. They aren’t. You can pick a better spec and still “play the mechanics as intended.”

Depends on what you mean by “we.” Realm/world first raids? Yes, they will.

That’s fair, and I never said they were. Saying “it’s not necessary to do good DPS” isn’t really a counterargument to the fact that Ret Paladin does less DPS.

500 > 400.
“Yes, but you don’t need 500.”
Okay?

I think what is considered “the best community” would be quite subjective, and would vary from person to person. I don’t really see the harm in people wanting to be the best they can be, and expecting the same from their raidmates.

It can be completed with hybrids present, yes, because they are being carried by non-hybrids.

Same for me, actually. I just find progressing through raids quickly to be more fun.

Fun is subjective.

Perhaps, but healing and mana requirements aren’t. The faster the fight, the better.

More chances to mess up on mechanics, more chance a tank dies and you wipe, etc.

On some boss fights? Sure. In all content? No.

It’s a much more difficult mechanics and healer fight if it takes longer.

The minimum DPS was to kill him before enrage, not necessarily to kill him before anything else goes wrong.

And yet people still wiped on that fight for reasons not limited to failing to beat the enrage timer. Granted, people sucked more back then, so… perhaps it will be easier this time around in Classic.

Nice strawman. No one said you have to min/max your DPS. They’re rightfully pointing out that vanilla just wasn’t very accommodating to Protection or Retribution, and other hybrid DPS specs.

You asked in your original post if both specs were as bad as paladins claimed. Since you didn’t really specify what those claims were exactly, I think it’s fair to substitute your question with “were they subpar?” The answer is unequivocally yes.

Prot lacked the gear to function properly as a tank in raids, and they lacked a taunt.
Ret lacked DPS
Most hybrid DPS specs had decent damage output, but it was very limited by mana issues and they lacked longevity that other DPS specs had, or they simply didn’t scale very well with gear upgrades.

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I was dueling an Hpally the other day who was running a weird set of gear and skullforge-reaver. He would run me oom and kill my pets and the 30 second long drain life curse from the sword made it so I couldn’t heal or bandage.

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Yeah, because fun is subjective… I don’t think you should push your min-maxing to other peoples choice of class spec. Because maybe they find it fun to min/max those specs.

You are making YOUR subjective fun, impact other peoples fun…Your fun impacts and alienates people playing the game, because this is a community based game. I know this to be true, because that was my number one gripe about vanilla, people like you… I am actually 100% cool with how the classes and specs are made. They all work fine, and you can complete all the content fine… but players like you make the game worse for a significant portion of the community. That is my view.

Since your ability of completing the content is not really affected by their play-style, there is no reason why you shouldn’t invite them. You can complete the content just fine.
Bringing a single ret paladin instead of a rogue, at MOST, will add 1-2 seconds to the boss time on a 1 minute fight… that’s pretty much meaningless.
That is the reality of the situation.

It also makes the game less diverse in the ways you can play it, which I think is overall bad for the game. Variety is the spice of life.

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196

13 Years too late.

Not that I am looking to provide any excuses, only that I am pointing out that if a class build CAN meet the raid average requirement then it’s not a hex upon the raid group because the player is indeed contributing what’s needed to pass the encounter.

Given that there are also players who’re playing higher DPS classes it becomes an even smaller point of focus.

Sure if that player really and genuinely likes that class then AWESOME! Lets get this guy some gear! However expecting players in guild to play a class because “Min-maxing”, that’s a proven recipe for player burnout.

I want players to stay playing, not burn out and walk away.

Correct, but guild morale is very important because it keeps players playing. I would rather have the guys and gals that are having FUN because they’re playing the build / class they love most. So long as their build output is at or above the required average for the encounter then they’re contributing their fair share.

If that player can extract better than the average, then hell ya! If they want to switch it up and play the more typical “optimum” build for their class then that’s awesome too.

My point is kinda simple… If they’re playing their build well and it’s within the defined passable zone of output then there is literally no problem because they’re both having fun AND doing their job.

No amount of E-peen flexing has ever improved raid morale or improved a raid group in any way.

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197

No one is doing that. Some of us would just choose not to invite someone unless they’re playing a better spec.

That’s not pushing their min-maxing onto them or their choice of class spec. They can pick whatever the hell they want, but they shouldn’t expect everyone to invite them because some people care that their DPS isn’t as good.

And conversely, saying that I have to invite a Ret despite their lower DPS ruins my fun. I’m not particular interested in inviting someone just because their fun will be impacted. I don’t care. That’s not my problem.

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Yeah but it the reverse, inviting you doesn’t ruin my fun… unless you complain lol.

The problem here is, YOU are the only one here who’s fun is reliant on such specific parameters that are totally irrelevant for you to achieve your goals.

My fun is not reliant on excluding players for their choice in class spec xD

THAT’s the issue…

And P.S. you should care about other peoples fun. You are human, and can empathize with other humans. We are kind of getting to the root of the issue :wink:

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199

Well I mean I wasn’t going to step into this one but you are playing to some fallacy and ignoring some key issues of human behavior in your reasoning.

If someone plays a subpar spec, unless you are the group leader or friends with others to group with them. The majority of the player base will shun you regardless. You are using a logical fallacy to place blame on someone else for the broad generalization of the matter at hand, which is hybrid specialization like balance, feral, ret are in regards to other classes in PvE content a joke and a burden to an average player. You also claim only that one person makes this claim, which is far from truth. If we take the same parameters with different content we mirror what exactly we see in BfA and all other expansions.

Spec A better then Spec B in Dungeon X? Spec B will not be chosen by the average pug unless it helps them in some way like preventing you from rolling on their gear. You are one of many in a largely inflated pool which is the DPS players.

Your fun is up to you and you should not care what others think but here you are on a public gaming forum arguing about whether or not you can do something in a video game. The fact you have an issue with the majority which can be statistically averaged with enough data and attempting to convey a message which is within itself an opinion as factual is quiet odd.

No, no one else should care about other peoples fun however in an MMO outside of the guild/friends level of grouping the majority do not care about your feelings. They want it done, Spec A is better then Spec B by a large margin therefore there is no credible reason to take you without setting another factor.

The root of the issue is that they while may come off as rude and a multiple of other things have a valid basis in their concepts. This argument pertaining to you should take Spec B because it wont kill you in the end is a play on sympathy.

If you want to play a hybrid dps spec in classic so bad then do so, literally the majority of people don’t care because they known they won’t pick you anyways. Which is why I don’t understand the reasoning behind these arguments.

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Yeah I don’t care if I am in the majority or the minority.

I always say what I think is right.

Though, I know i won’t care about bringing hybrids, and the times where I did play hybrids in vanilla, I didn’t have that bad of an issue finding groups… though I did for sure encounter elitist people.

I have stated no logical fallacies… and that is a fact.

I have stated my opinion on what I find is rude and selfish… and what i think is better for the game as a whole. I have also stated very well reasoned arguments for why I think that as well… from multiple angles.

This is not a discussion about whether spec A is better than spec B… never was for me. But I will argue that the difference is not significant enough to impact the majority of players.
I argue, valuable traits like… showing up on time, not making stupid mistakes, loyalty, being helpful to guild members and contributing reagents and consumables, and overall not being a jerk are FAR more important than what spec you are bringing to the table.
And I find that to be very important to bring up.

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201

Don’t attempt to walk away with appealing the sympathy. You have stated that, you have numerous fallacies in your arguments. It was a discussion for that, it is proven by your very posts.

Saying it was never the point while attempting to shine a light on other factors at play to pull away from the fact it is a subpar spec, is contradictory in nature. The simple fact that in numerous posts and even this post you have done these things, then have the gall to deny it says a lot.

You can argue your feelings all day, in the majority does not care. I have no problem with people wanting to do something in their spare time until it comes to harming others in any aspect, including the notion people should accept someone based on feelings. We are human beings, a form of higher thought animal, not some artificial creature with respective thought to all living things, while some hold that ideal the majority never will.

People will simply refuse to play with you, just based on the notion you are appealing to the fact you say you deserve to play, or it doesn’t hurt others that bad. Why even bother arguing to change public opinion, when public opinion can only be swayed by action and evidence? Just play your game, enjoy your time, and stop these mindless games.

This goes for literally everyone, this isn’t singling you out, you were just the first one I saw here doing this. No one has the right to tell others to play with them or do things their way without a form of agreement.

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Can you not give to much information to ppl.

Let them do their own theory crafting.

Paladin is a mystery to some.

Seems like you theory craft like my younger brother keep cough to yourself.

Ppl will find out in about 8 to 10 months after wow release.

If are listening to Theloras he is on the right path. I can see he has been doing his homework.
Paladin or shaman are not easy but are very strong classes. If done right. Again you will need an alt to reach full potential of those classes. I only give hints no more or less. Those are the original hero classes.

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Okay, so tell me a fallacy that I have said… I am curious O_o

I am not arguing that hybrids do less dps… I am simply saying it doesn’t impact the success of the raid and that the gap in dps may be a little misleading due to some of the utility they bring.

I am not the only one who thinks this lol… Blizzard themselves created this game for that very purpose lol. They wanted every single spec viable for raid… and that is a true statement. Even in the presence of the intentional hybrid tax. They found it unfortunate that some specs were not being invited to raids.

Like I said before… I don’t care if the majority agrees with me or not. I am here to change peoples minds and say what I think is right.

It could be for not… but again, I don’t shutup just because it might be useless. Though i am not so sure the majority actually think like you… maybe certainly the majority of the hardcore community(but even then not all).

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