Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
102

Using vanish doesn’t even need a target either :crazy_face:

1 Like
103

Sorry I took a break from the game for a bit. :smiley:

Now obviously I don’t wanna start an internet argument here, and I understand that Paladins are extremely easy to play, and they are very prominent at that 1600-1800 rating, where most of the player base plays… and that’s really cool.

But when you get higher rating, like 2100-2400 even, that “Mid-Range Spec” begins to feel like playing a Target Dummy Simulator.

And that’s just not fun.

Now, I do swap over and play other classes because I am not having fun, but doing so just highlights the issues on why I believe Paladins aren’t fun in this “Mid Range Fantasy Role.”

And trying to figure out what that niche is at 2100+ rating :stuck_out_tongue:

  • I do not feel like a “Melee Class”
    • I do not have Instant Mobility
    • I do not have MS
    • I do not have a reliable Snare
    • I do not have mutliple micro CCs
      • Fel Eruption + Chaos Nova, Storm Bolt + Shock Wave, Maim + Bash, etc…
  • I do not feel like a “Caster Class”
    • I do not have Roots
    • I do not have Knock Backs, Static Links, Vortexs, etc…
    • I do not have Disengage, Blink, Portal, Teleport, etc…
    • I do not have a range kick
    • I do not have a Purge
  • I do not feel like I have very engaging / playmaking abilities
    • Smoke Bomb, Ice Wall, Death Grip, Champion’s Spear, the Hunt, etc…

So the questions I wanna ask, under the idea that Ret Paladin 2100+ feels boring, like a Target Dummy Simulator…is:

  1. What Role are Ret Paladins meant to play at higher rated PvP and are they fulfilling that role?
    - Keeping in mind things being nerfed like Healing Hands…
    - Keeping in mind the homogenization of the rest of the game
    - Am I meant to be the “Unkillable Wall” because it doesn’t feel that way in game

  2. If possible, what can I trade to get pushed further into these roles?
    - Can I “trade” Jurisdiction for a true Gap Closer?
    - Can I “trade” Divine Toll for a more utility based cooldown, even as just a PvP Talent?
    - Can I “trade” BoSac for a knockback, root, or something else?
    - Can I “trade” burst damage for a Mortal Strike type effect? (Is that even necessary in modern day WoW?)
    - Can I “trade” duration on a HoJ Stun, for a secondary AoE Stun?
    - etc…

:smiley:

Edit:

Example:

DH 11.1 PvP Talent:

Illidan’s Grasp

Replaces Fel Eruption
15 yd range

Channeled (5 sec cast) 1 min cooldown

You strangle the target with demonic magic, stunning them in place and dealing (700% of Attack power) Shadow damage over 5 sec while the target is grasped. Can move while channeling.

Use Illidan’s Grasp again to toss the target to a location within 20 yards.

(https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/spell=205630/illidans-grasp)

Paladin 11.1 PvP Talent:

Shining Revelation

The light reveals all enemies in stealth or invisible to you while under the effects of Divine Shield. This effect lingers for 20 sec after Divine Shield fades.

(https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/spell=936051/shining-revelation)

The Paladin class is brain rot easy, but there’s nothing engaging. :frowning:

4 Likes
104

You don’t need with horse charges and immunity to slow and root in a 25cd

thank god

Thank god

You have enough CC

105

Yes. We are told that what we have is enough.

We are told that it is exceptionally powerful to have Blessing of Protection and Blessing of Spellwarding, but using one on anyone means we cannot cast either on anyone for 4 or 5 minutes.

We are told that Divine Shield and BoP are “the most OP defensives in the game” but in pvp they are dispelled, pretty much immediately or in the case of a hunter’s tranquilizing shot on BoP, instantly.

We are told we cannot complain that we dont have instant mobility to counter roots, slows, and enemy instant movement because we have Blessing of Freedom, but it is dispelled or stolen.

We are told Steed is adequate mobility, but it is visually telegraphed and makes Paladin a fan favorite fear target so we are fast in the wrong direction.

We’re told we dont need MS, knockbacks, adequate slows/roots, a dispell, ect ect ect, because we have Bubble on about a 4 min cooldown, then we’re scolded for “using bubble too early” when we already used LoH, DP, and SoV to try to live and almost failed to live.

We might hear things like “your damage is trash” ect, but we didn’t apply several dozen pvp nerfs on our own active and passive talents as well as pvp talents. We also didn’t choose when the enemy warrior would Spell Reflect Execution Sentence or Hammer of Justice. In the off chance that the target isn’t stun immune, HoJ is a magical stun so it is dispellable, so with Hand of Hindrance deleted from the game keeping a target in range to get some use from all our talents that require melee range or close to it is very difficult.

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106

Don’t bother, he’s not here to discuss anything beyond “I hate paladins” “paladins ‘cry’”

He won’t even fully read posts.

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107

Yeah, and I’m just trying to have a calm, reasonable discussion on how I think that’s flawed. Which I know is hard on the forums. :smiley:

This for example.

My response is yes and no.

Hammer of Justice is a very powerful stun, but it’s rather unique compared to most other melee.

  • Warrior:
    • Storm Bolt + Shockwave (Physical)
    • Intimidating Shout
  • Death Knight:
    • Asphyxiate + Ghoul Stun / Remorseless Winter (Physical)
    • Blinding Sleet
  • Demon Hunter:
    • Fel Eruption (Physical) + Chaos Nova (Magical)
    • Detainment
  • Hunter:
    • Pet Stun + Binding Shot (Physical)
    • Trap

(Etc…)

  • Paladin:
    • Hammer of Justice + ____________
    • Blinding Light / Repent

Sure, Hammer of Justice can be seen as a powerful ability, it’s a magical ability and Paladin’s only Stun, BUT it last 5 seconds to make up for that.

Now the feedback:

  • As a Paladin player, being the only melee with a singular, single target magical stun, doesn’t feel great in a PvP Game full of melee with double physical stuns.
  • In a PvP Game where all Healers now have access to Magical Dispels.
  • It makes the game feel rather scripted and reduces the amount of “play making” a Paladin can do at higher ratings.

Now the Questions:

  • Should Paladins be the only melee with a singular magical stun?
    • Should Asphyxiate also be magical? Why or why not?
    • Should Fel Eruption also be magical? Why or why not?
    • How do you balance which stuns should and shouldn’t be magical vs physical?
  • Does Blizzard balance the game around the general assumption that “melee” have 2 physical stuns, and where does that leave Paladins in this solo mid-range fantasy role?
  • If we are being honest, and more and more of the game is being homogenized, could Paladins see a Class Talent choice node that allows them the ability to choose between Fist of Justice and a new “Combo Stun” type ability?
    • Think of Templar Strikes/Slash and Hammer of Light

Example:

Hammer of Justice becomes a 2 part combo:
Flail of Justice
- Swing a Holy Flail at your target dealing XYZ Holy Damage and stunning them for 3 seconds. Gets replaced with Flail of Wrath for 15 sec.
Flail of Wrath
- Deal a devastating sweep attack, dealing XYZ Holy Damage and stunning all enemies within 14 yards for 2 seconds.

Now Paladins, for better or worse, have the options of two stuns like everyone else. But there’s still some drawbacks like having to use your Single Target stun first, or only having 15 seconds to make use of the secondary stun, etc… :smiley:

I get it-- Paladins are easy. It’s just getting boring. ¯ \ _ (ツ)_/¯
I wanna do 2s, I wanna make plays, idk just something…

1 Like
108

In a pvp game doesn’t feel good to play against someone with two immunities and absurd self heal

Sometimes we understand classes have strengths and weakness, and different strengths. Sorry but this entire thread looks like people demanding paladins to have other strengths(two stuns), to make up for their weakness and don’t give up their other strengths.

And somehow, isn’t possible?

109

Well, that’s why in my post I stated there should be fair trades.

Jurisdiction is the talent that gives Paladins +range on their BoJ and FV spells, right?

If that talent was on a choice node with “Falling Sword” – whatever that may be – Paladins would then be giving up their “mid-range” for a more classic melee type of gap closer.

Ultimately, the game is becoming more and more homogenized, where other classes are getting “Paladin abilities.” But Paladins aren’t getting any of [their] tools in return.

  • Shamans getting Burrow is basically a weaker Bubble.
  • Warriors getting Berserker Shout is basically a weaker BoSanctuary
  • Druids getting Symbiotic Relationship is basically a weaker Beacon of Light.

Where’s our “weaker” Gap Closer? MS? Knock Back? Root? Death Grip? Smoke Bomb, etc…
(And “weaker” can be in duration, cooldown, whatever…)

Its just usually people claim Paladins have:

  • BoSanc
  • BoFreedom
  • BoP

And if you aren’t using them, you’re playing badly and you’re just not utilizing your utility to it’s full potential!!!

And it’s just no… I am using them, I am doing what I can, it’s just:

  • On my Warrior I’m also using:
    • Blade Storm to break roots and immune CC
    • Rallying Cry to break Root Beams for my Healer (BoF)
    • Berserker Roar to break CC for myself and my team (BoSanc)
    • Intervene to eat a kidney or interrupt (BoSanc)
    • Spell Reflect to reflect a CC
    • Champion’s Spear to root the enemies
    • All while having instant mobility, applying MS, effective snares, Sharpen Blade, etc…

It’s not to play the victim, but to give feedback that after 20 years, Paladins have become stale. Their abilities are not engaging and every other class that already has engaging abilities, keeps getting Paladin’ish Spells.

Example:

Berserker Roar
PvP Talent

Replaces Berserker Shout
Instant 1 min cooldown

Go berserk, removing and granting immunity to Fear, Sap, and Incapacitate effects for 6 sec.

Also reduces the duration of the next crowd control effect within 10 sec by 50% on group members within 40 yds.

vs

Blessing of Sanctuary
PvP Talent

Instant 45 sec cooldown

Instantly removes all stun, silence, fear and horror effects from the friendly target and reduces the duration of future such effects by 60% for 5 sec.

110

Lets compare since you’re commenting on a Warrior.

Why do Rets typically play 3s and 2s with a Warrior partner? I have some thoughts.

Rets dont have Spell Reflect, but a War can send our one instant cast stun and Execution Sentence back at us, on a 30 second Cooldown
Ret benefits greatly from having a teammate with MS, a strong slow, a fear, more damage than Ret, and 3 instant mobility tools, Ret lacks all of those.
In some match ups having a disarm would be great, but Ret doesnt have one, so having a warrior with one can be an asset.
Warrior is one of many classes that can remove the defensive considered by some players to be very strong, Divine Shield, but how strong is it if it is removed by Shattering throw while you are immune to Hammer of Justice due to Spell Reflect? And Vs Ret you could Heroic leap and kite for most of Divine Shield anyway if you failed to dispell Divine Shield.

We know Ret has some tools, some are even nice to have while being dispellable, but we think Paladins could stand to gain a smige of damage and mobility to compensate from not having VERY useful tools, like smokebomb, many instant cast mobility and CC abilities, a dispell, a strong slow/snare, MS, Disarm, Invisability, knockbacks, ect ect ect. Lots of specs have many of what I consider pvp specific tools, and Ret gets to have all its damage pvp talents deleted from the game and nearly every active and passive talent pvp nerfed…

111

Again, sorry, i cant see fair trades here. And honestly is expected cause we have our own biases, but this is just too much

And become useless since 99% of your skills are disabled?

And get immediately rooted again?

only fear and incapacitated effects, doent remove stun, horror, slow and roots

pffft

Its lame spell that can be easily baited or removed by using other minor stand spells.

Very rare spell to be run since it require another talent to make usable, it doesnt last long

“effective snares” is a funny strenght, and you are forgetting how pitfull Warrior self heal and survival is, a ret never loses in a x1 scenario against a warrior, and warrior effectively get shafted by other dps without a heal

Blessing is a 45 cd that also removes stun, silence and horror, while berserker shout only remove fear, its a 1m CD and even the reduction duration is lower

So we get a worse skill that paladin got, after our previous one being nerfed, and somehow paladins are on the losing side? I guess is the grass is greener in the other side thing.

1 Like
112

But it effects the whole team. =/

This is usually where the conversation goes south because these AoE factors so rarely gets taken into account and I’m not sure how to make that more of a factor.

Tremor Totem, Reverse Magic, Mass Dispel, Beserker Shout, etc… effect multiple targets, so naturally those abilities will seem worse than BoSanc, but when it removes your whole BG Blitz team from an AoE fear… that’s pretty powerful.

That’s the trade off.

I’m not asking for buffs, I’m asking for “trades.”

“Sure, you can have Falling Sword – or whatever-- but Steed can only have 1 charge and BoF has to have a 45 second cooldown…”

Great! As long as its balanced, that’s the goal. Just so happens Paladins have a Talent called Cavalier that grants Divine Steed a second charge, that’s probably a good choice node place to start. :smiley:

  • The point is to find those similar trade offs for Paladins, so they can be more similar to everyone else.
    • Which yes, homogenization is bad, but it’s the state of the game in WoW 2025
  • Or to better define that “Mid-Range Niche” so higher rated Paladin game play feels more impactful, engaging, and fun.

:slight_smile:

1 Like
113

Yeah, thats literally the point i made about strength and weakness, Can affect the whole team but only work for fear and have a 1m cd

Yours work on any CC and can target one character with a lower CD.

If you want to target the whole team you would need to also make it only work on fear, do you want that knowing releasing one target of a hard CC can be much better than a fear that can go off by itself in a damage threshold?

114

Yes and no, it comes down to balancing.

Reverse Magic for example removes magical debuffs and reflects it back on the enemy, that can be very useful to remove polymorphs, roots, fears, etc…

BoSanc doesn’t have to be exclusive to just fear. It could be AoE, but have a longer cooldown, or shorter range, duration, whatever.

It doesn’t have to be so black and white in its design and there’s some wiggle room to play around with it.

My point with BoSanc, is that it’s not this godly tier utility button that other classes don’t have similar, yet maybe weaker, versions of.

  • I’m Grounding a Trap while breaking another ally from Fear with Tremor
  • I’m Mass Dispelling a Cyclone on my healer, while also mass dispelling a Mage’s Iceblock
  • I’m using Reverse Magic on a Sheep to poly the enemy Mage and allow my healer a chance to heal.

But in addition:

  • I have Grounding and Tremor, but also Static Link, and Thunder Storm, and Feral Lunge, and Gust of Wind…
  • I have Reverse Magic, but also Rain from Above, Illidan’s Grasp, The Hunt, etc…

I’m truly, truly, not trying to play the victim here. It’s just patch after patch every other class gets some form of Paladin ability, or some new utility, while Paladins are yet to get anything new and engaging themselves. (Something other than BIGDAMJUDGE)

115

Having shorter range and longer duration doesn’t balance things would for the tulity it does and would do if it was AOE for the whole team

Mostly because other classes didnt had stuff before, and now they are attempting to balance things would, paladins dont get new utility because they arleady got plenty together with their own strenghts

Again, to get something new/different that cover their weakness, you have to give up something else in equal

Lmao, now we are talking like shamans have better?

116

Yes… Trades.

I’ve said this like 6 times now. I’m okay with making balanced trades, even if that comes at the expense of homogenization, because I do not believe this “Mid-Range Paladin” has a very fun and effective niche at higher ratings.

When I play my Paladin, it feels more like one of those Target Dummies that hits back than an engaging class capable of expressing skill.

Either that needs to be solved, or it would be nice to get “Trades” and finally just be like everyone else. =/

  • If that means I can give up some burst damage to have an MS, so that I can play 2s competitively with my friends. It’s a video game, I want to have that experience on a Paladin, my preferred class. Sign me up.
  • If that means giving up Jurisdiction so I can have “Falling Sword” so that I can move up and down the Z-axis more freely, again sign me up.

And so on…

I’m willing to compromise on that homogenization, because it is what it is, in order to feel more impactful, to feel more engaging, in higher rated PvP Settings.

1 Like
117

Right, i just didnt saw any trades, that are actually balanced.

Plu, Ret seems to be pretty high in ranking. the Top Ret is above the top arms in solo, blitz and 3x(most common modes) while losing in x2 by a mere 60 rank and in RBG by 58

118

They literally only gave us range because they did not want to put in time for a gap closer. That is literally what blizz said during ret’s spec redesign in df. It was nothing to do with balance. If they wanted to balance then they could had given us one. In fact they tested several in the past.

119

It’s due to Paladins having so many tools. You are a jack of all trades when it comes to the tools in your kit to deal with situations. And yes I understand you can get dispelled and CCed just like any other class out there. It’s part of the thing that attempts to balance Paladins. Remember in the past where only mass dispel or shattering throw could break a bubble? That was not fun for the other classes as if you didn’t have one of two spells in the game you just watched an immune class roll up and some times kill you while being immune to anything you could do back. You goto look at it from the pov of both sides. You made a list of just about every effect in the game do you understand that if you gave Paladins all you asked for you would break the class entirely in terms of balance?

120

Again, I’m not asking for buffs without compromises. I want the game to be balanced, I just think Paladins could be more fun and engaging.

That’s the key point I’m trying to get across.

Sure, you can go faceroll to 2400 or overcap on 10,000 Holy Power and still complete a +15 Mythic+… but that’s not really fun and engaging game design.

  • I don’t want to hit Wake of Ashes and have it auto-proc Wings and 13 other abilities, I want Crusade/Avenging Wrath to feel as fun and engaging as Metamorphosis is for DH. It doesn’t have to be a leap and a stun, but it would be nice to have “something.”

(What “something” is… is for the game devs to decide. I’m just giving feedback that it would be nice for have these abilities do more.)

  • Hitting Divine Toll and throwing one extra judgement isn’t as much fun as it is to Spear a Warlock before they teleport, or Deathgrip a player behind a box LoS of their healer. It doesn’t have to be a root or a grip, but it would be nice if Divine Toll did something more or something different.
    • These things are more engaging than just another blanket - AOE - “Does Damage Button.”
  • Jurisdiction, the +20 yard range on BoJ and FV, is a very poorly implemented ability. Yes it gets the job done, but it does so in a very poor way that isn’t portrayed very well in-game.
    • I’ve played 3v3 with RL Friends who often find it hard to understand which target I am attacking because I’m hitting from 20 yards away.
    • It’s not an informative talent for a Video Game

I agree with Greatbrae, I want a Falling Sword / Instant Gap Closer on a choice node with Jurisdiction. Again – what that is, is up to the game Devs, if that is to be an option.

They are more equipped to come up with that Falling Sword design than I am.

But my feedback is again:

  • I’d like a Jurisdiction vs a Falling Sword choice node.
    • Whatever “Falling Sword” is, hopefully it would have more engagement and skillcap than Jurisdiction
  • I’d like Jurisdiction to get a Visual Update.
    • As I’ve stated multiple times, Jurisdiction is not an informative Talent
    • Log into a Paladin, move 20 yards from a Target Dummy, turn your character 90 degrees and attack that Dummy. It looks silly, it’s a video game, it’s nice to know wtf is going on. :slight_smile:

I get that it’s a lot, and it’s a bit much to ramble on about, but video game design is complex. I’m not really having fun with this current design of Paladins, and figured before I quit the faceroll overcapping Holy Power snooze fest this class has become, I’d try and offer some feedback to hopefully make some more engaging gameplay.

https://youtu.be/i2ssCgUCnuM?t=888

(Again, here’s the Skill Cap video I’ve posted before that speaks to that linear repetitive (boring) gameplay.)

2 Likes
121

I don’t PvP but I think this is worth discussing further. Paladin has been designed to have many different tools, so for balance, they need to be weaker or have easily accessible counter-play (E.g. Magic Stun gets dispelled)

In previous iterations of the game, Bubble (which reads become IMMUNE - this ability should be very strong) was apparently a “win” button when some specs couldn’t deal with it.

Bubble is core thematically tied to Paladins. It feels too late from a game design standpoint to remove it now, but its power allotment is very costly to Paladins.

Now that Bubble isn’t a “win some for free/do nothing in other matchups” button, Paladin is left with support-esque tools that have become largely powercrept by other classes in PvP settings.

Without transformative Hero Talents, aka “Give something up, and get something you need” I don’t see how Paladin can get closer to balanced in PvP