Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
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Disclaimer: I understand Paladins have gotten a lot of work put into the Class over these last two expansions. I am not saying Paladins aren’t viable, I’m just expressing some remaining “problems” that result in Paladins still feeling a bit underwhelming/unfun to play.

The time and effort put into Paladins is greatly appreciated.

Just going to get right into it, with a pretty straight forward structure of Problem, Feedback, Questions:

Paladin Class

Problem #1: Lack of uniqueness to Paladins within the World of Warcraft Universe.

  • Feedback:
    • Paladins, the class, still feel like they lack this unique Class (or spec) Feature that you find on a lot of other classes. While all classes deal damage or heal with a certain school of magic, most also have some more defining feature.
  • Examples:
    • Death Knight: Uses Death Magic, but is the only class to summon Undead, have Blue Skin, Unique Eye features, etc…
    • Demon Hunter: Uses Chaos Magic, but has slow fall Wings, double Jump, unique race features such as tattoos and blindfolds, and a unique weapon; Warglaives.
    • Shaman: Uses Earthen Magic, but has Weapon Imbues, Elemental Shields, an reinforced fantasy of Totems, Ancestors, Ghost Wolfs, etc…
  • Questions:
    • Is there any unique perk that could come to Paladins or any of the singular specs? (like Fury and Dual Wielding 2handers)
    • Is there more emphasis that could be put on Auras, Blessings, Seals, Divine Steed, or any other ability that reinforce that Class Fantasy?
    • How does Blizzard feel about Death Charger encroaching on that Paladin+Divine Steed Fantasy?
    • Now that Death Charger has been a thing for a bit, has it given a different perspective on how mounted combat works in the World of Warcraft universe? Good or Bad? (personally-- still hate Divine Steed :slight_smile: )

Problem #2: Lack of Customization in the Class Tree due to running out of Talents.

  • Feedback:
    • The class tree feels like it’s been a really solid step in the right direction, but still falls short in a few areas, most notably the lack of customization due to lack of talents.
    • This isn’t due to “hard choices,” but more so, I took the 26/31 talents that are “mandatory” and threw the other 5 into whatever. Instead of 15 are mandatory, 15 are choice.
  • Questions:
    • Is there any room to further condense some of our Class Talents, such as;
      • Obduracy, Holy Aegis, Sanctified Plates, Seal of Might, Vengeful Wrath, etc…

Problem #3: Divine Toll is NOT a fun ability to press.

  • Feedback: in Single Target combat, and most notably for Ret and Holy, Divine Toll doesn’t really feel fun to press. It’s just an empowered version of an existing spell and doesn’t really carry any weight to it.
  • Questions:
    • What makes Divine Toll significant to the Paladin Class? What’s “Kyrian” about this ability, or has that become dated? (Blessing of Seasons :eyes:)
    • What makes Divine Toll fun to press?
    • What is the fantasy that is being double down’d on?
    • Why is Divine Toll Judgement for Ret and not say Blade of Justice, the spec specific ability?
    • Does Holy’s Divine Toll interact with all the Holy Shock talents? Why or why not?
    • Is there another ability that could be added to make Paladins more fun to play, especially in smaller group combat?
    • Is there more utility that could be expressed in Divine Toll?
      • Blade Storm, The HUNT, Abom Limb, Convoke, etc…

Problem #4: Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Feedback:
    • Cool this ability is being buffed, but just curious why this isn’t a Blessing?
  • Questions:
    • Would this make more sense to upgrade Cleanse into “Blessing of Salvation” or whatever, to better tie into that Paladin fantasy?
    • Better synergize with other talents?
    • Or is “Cleanse” iconic to the class you wouldn’t want to replace it? (Which is understandable, just curious)

Problem #5: Words Matter – What is a Blessing?

  • Feedback:
    • Paladins are in a unique spot where Passives and random buffs are gaining the word “Blessing” while simultaneously having other talents work while under the effects of “Blessings.”
    • Holy Ritual [Class Talent]
    • Blessed Calling [Class Talent]
  • Questions:
    • As far as Paladins go, what does it mean to be a “Blessing?”
    • Which Talents work with which Blessings, and how do you better inform the average player?
      • Blessing of Freedom
      • Blessing of Sacrfice
      • Blessing of Protection/Spellwarding
      • Blessing of Sancatuary
      • Blessing of Winter?
      • Blessing of Spring?
      • Blessing of Summer?
      • Blessing of Autumn?
      • Blessing of Dawn?
      • Blessing of Dusk?
      • Blessing of An’she?

Problem #6: Capstone Class Talents and how they reflect the specs.

  • Feedback:
    • While the Class Tree has been a big step in the right direction, again, there’s still some confusing or lackluster talents. Especially towards the bottom of the Tree.
  • Questions:
    • How does Lightbearer reflect Protection?
    • How does Light’s Revocation reflect Retribution?
    • How does Blizzard kindof feel about these last 3 rows of talents and could some things be redesigned or better organized to kindof give Paladins a more solid feel of specializing into a certain “type” of Paladin?

Problem #7: Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Feedback:
    • This feels like we’re again losing Class Fantasy in the search for Class Balance.
  • Questions:
    • Not to say this is a bad thing, but again, how does Blizzard better balance this to ensure that Fury Warriors aren’t healing for more than Paladins after these nerfs? -.-’

Holy Paladin

(Shorter as they seem to be getting the most changes)

Problem #1: Weapon Specialization / Spec Fantasy

  • Feedback:
    • 2handed weapons, Librams?, Shields?.. This has been going on for like 2 1/2 years now…
  • Questions:
    • Seriously, what’s up with the 2handers on Paladins lol?
    • SoTR, Denounce, Holy Wrath?
    • Not being able to DPS while leveling in Legion? Guys got any plans for this before that Legion Remix?

Problem #2: Strength of Casted Heals vs Holy Power Spenders

  • Feedback:
    • Don’t want to give too much feedback here cause it feels like this will be changing throughout the 11.1 PTR, which is nice, but it doesn’t feel great on Holy Paladins being at such the mercy of tunning.
  • Questions:
    • Any other plans to share about the balancing of Casted Heals, Holy Power Spenders, and Beacon of Virtue?

Problem #3: Double downing on a playstyle

  • Feedback:
    • Similar to above, it doesn’t feel great to not have more choice in our overall Caster vs Melee playstyle and the talents can feel like they lack customization.
  • Questions:
    • Are there any plans to give more solid builds options, to allow players better customization and playstyles between being a Caster vs Melee Paladin?
    • Any plans to enhance Crusader Strike?
    • Any plans to make a Holy Bolt type spell?
    • Any Plans to make a Denounce vs Shinning Righteousness choice node?

Again, Holy Paladin seems to be getting more changes, so I’ll end my ramble here for now, till testing can be done. :smiley:

Protection:

Problem #1: Avenger’s Shield, Blessed Hammer and Judgement feel like they lack solid spell identity.

  • Feedback:
    • I just started playing my Paladin in hopes of Tanking in 11.1, but my initial feel for playing the spec has been pretty bland…
    • #1) For how iconic Avenger’s Shield is too the spec, it doesn’t feel all that great to press.
    • #2) Blessed Hammer feels weak and the animation and vfx feels dated and doesn’t feel like it carries weight.
    • #3) Judgement feels more like a “Holy Bolt” (or Holy Hammer) than a “Condemn.” It feels like it’s lost all meaning in the sense of actually Judging a target.

  • Questions:

    • Something that stuck out too me the most when playing Protection was Crusader’s Judgement and Bastion of Light.
      • Judgement no longer felt like you were Judging an enemy, unleashing a seal, or whatever, but more like: Holy Bolt → Holy Power, Holy Bolt → Holy Power, Holy Bolt → Holy Power
    • Is there a way to make Judgement feel more iconic to the Spec while also putting more emphasize on Avenger’s Shield and Blessed Hammer?
    • Could Crusader’s Judgement and Bastion of Light work off a different ability?
    • Should AS generate Holy Power and be more important to the feel of the spec?
    • Could Blessed Hammer get a slight redesign to feel more impactful/powerful? How would 2 chargers work?

Problem #2: Templar Fantasy feels pretty bad on Protection.

  • Feedback:
    • Again, not an expert on Prot, I plan to main it in 11.1, but my initial experience is that Templar feels like an awful fantasy, lol.
    • Hitting Eye of Tyr into Light’s Hammer just doesn’t feel fluid and looks pretty goofy.
    • Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:
  • Questions:
    • Is there a better fantasy/flow you can give to the Eye of Tyr + Hammer of Light combo?
    • Why not just make Hammer of Light replace SotR at this point? Would that not feel smoother?
    • I’m not a fan of hitting my Keybind for Eye of Tyr (or WoA) into hitting it again for Hammer of Light. It doesn’t feel like a combo, but just spammy/sloppy, I know more changes are coming to make this a bit smoother, but just curious, how do you make a Combo feel good on a Keyboard Input system?

Again, I am by no means an expert on Protection I plan to play it more next patch, just wanted to give a bit of feedback for these few things that initially felt pretty bad when swapping over.

Retribution

Problem #1: Talent Choice nodes that lack meaningful Choice

  • Feedback:

    • Something very interesting and maybe unique on Paladins right now is that we have all these choice nodes that don’t feel like great choices…

      • Final Verdict vs Justicar’s Vengeance
      • Vanguard’s Momentum vs Sanctify
      • Improved Blade of Justice vs Holy Blade
      • Swift Justice vs Light of Justice
      • Tempest of the Lightbringer vs Inquisitor’s Ire
      • Boundless Judgment vs Improved Judgment
      • Crusading Strikes vs Templar Strikes
      • Empyrean Power vs Judge, Jury and Executioner
      • Light’s Celerity vs Guided Prayer
      • Aegis of Protection vs Shield of Vengeance
      • Final Reckoning vs Execution Sentence
      • Blade of Vengeance vs Holy Flames

    • Every single Ret Paladin ability somehow has a choice node, but it does not feel like there’s any real substance there, lol…

  • Questions:
    • Is there any chance that Blizzard uses this unique opportunity to test out more of a solid Holystrike vs Holyflames (Radiant, w/e) builds?
    • Is there a level of sandbox testing that can be done on Paladins with abilities like Sanctity, JV, Inquistor’s Ire, etc… to make a new playstyle that doesn’t effect the current playstyle by adding in synergetic talents? (Increases Holyfire damage done, etc…)
    • How does Blizzard feel about having all these choice nodes, but none feeling that real choices? How is this portrayed to new Players?
    • Any chance Ret could see a re-arrangement to their Talent Tree, especially the middle?

Problem #2: Melee vs Range – A Mid-Range Spec whose spells and abilities do not feel mid-range.

  • Feedback:
    • This is more about Jurisdiction, Blade of Justice and Final Verdict, but for a “Mid Range Spec” our abilities don’t feel like mid range spells.
    • The targeting, animations, etc… don’t really feel like they represent a mid-range class you’d find in other video games and can feel quite deceiving at times, especially in PvP.
  • Questions:
    • Again, how does Blizzard feel about the Range on Ret Paladins?
    • What’s working what isn’t?
    • How do you as designers, communicate spells and abilities being “mid-range?”
    • Do you feel like BoJ and FV are successful at doing so?
    • Any plans to update BoJ, TV/FV/JV, or any other ability to better represent this role?

Problem #3: Over budgeted Wake of Ashes while simultaneously diminishing the iconic Avenging Wrath.

  • Feedback:
    • There is a part that agrees Radiant Glory stream lining Avenging Wrath has helped the class, but there’s also the feel of this ability being extremely over budgeted.
    • Avenging Wrath has lost almost all weight to the ability, and Wake of Ashes has become this bloated mess of a spell. :sweat_smile:
  • Questions:
    • How does Blizzard feel about Radiant Glory now that its been live for a few months?
    • Do you not think Wake of Ashes has become bloated or overbudgeted?
    • How does Blizzard feel about Avenging Wrath and Crusade being an “iconic” spec ability?
    • Has Blizzard unintentionally diminished the iconic-ness of Avenging Wrath and how do you get that back?
    • What’s the most important thing that happens when you press Wake of Ashes?
      • The damage?
      • The 3 HP Generation?
      • The Searing Light Proc?
      • The Truth’s Wake DoT?
      • The activation of Hammer of Light/Dawnlight?
      • The activation of Wings?

Problem #4: Deals XYZ Holy Damage to all targets in front of you… which ability am I speaking about?

  • Feedback:
    • The Ret talents are all beginning to feel very unimaginative, and boring. =/
    • Wake of Ashes, Hammer of Light, Divine Arbiter, Searing Light, Final Reckoning, Light’s Deliverance, Divine Toll… all these abilities just instantly deal XYZ holy damage…
  • Questions:
    • How does Blizzard feel about these capstone abilities, and could some change to be more unique?
    • Could Divine Toll have more utility?
      • Champion’s Spear, Abom Limb, The Hunt, etc…
    • Could cooldowns have more fantasy? (Blessing of Might)
    • Could Light’s Deliverance and Divine Arbiter merge?
    • What’s the difference between Final Reckoning and Searing Light?
    • Could Executioner’s Sentence do more?

Problem #5: Dawnlights and Empyrean Hammer – the hidden 45% of your DPS!!

  • Feedback:
    • The Hero Talents for Ret feels a bit wonky right now because the bulk of Paladin dps feels like it comes from a “hidden” application.
    • Dawnlights and Empyrean Hammers don’t really feel in control of the Paladin, and without a DPS Meter, Paladins kindof have no indication of where almost 40% of their DPS is truly coming from.
    • It doesn’t feel great to not have Wake of Ashes empower your Holy Power Spenders, as that usually feels like a better indicator of “something is happening.” (IE: Diablolist Warlocks)
  • Questions:
    • Does Blizzard feel like Dawnlights and Empyrean Hammers are clearly indicated to the Player? (Cause personally I don’t)
    • How does Blizzard feel about the identity/fantasy of Templar? What’s the most important aspect to the Hero Tree? Hammer of Light? Empyrean Hammers?
      • I’m honestly not a fan of Templar at all.
        • The Combo feels sloppy, Empyrean Hammers feel hidden, there’s no fantasy being double down’d on, etc…

Problem #6: PvP Talents feel lacking in identifying an unique Class Strength

  • Feedback:
    • Again, something that looks like it may change a bit more over the course of the patch, but just want to make mention of a few things.
    • Paladins in PvP feel extremely bland and boring. As more and more classes gain “unique” Paladin abilities, the strength and value of our spells feels like they continue to dwindle with nothing in return.

I spoke briefly in the Paladin forums about this, and I don’t want this to sound like a “victim complex” :wink: but it does feel like other classes are encroaching on the Paladin design quite a bit.

Take a look at this from Warriors;

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Questions:
    • Where do you draw the line with Berserker Roar and Blessing of Sanctuary?
      • AoE vs Single Target, usable while CC’d, etc…
    • An Arms Warrior may feel like Rogue encroach on them in PvP, does Blizzard feel like there could be a similar encroachment of Arms Warrior talents to Paladins?

If we look at Arms Talents:

Arms PvP Talents:

  • Defensive Talents:
    • Battlefield Commander
    • Master and Commander
    • Duel
    • Safeguard
    • Disarm
    • Berserker Roar
    • Rebound
  • Offensive Talents:
    • Demolition
    • Dragon Charge
    • Sharpen Blade
    • Strom of Destruction
  • Are Warriors becoming too defensive, and in the process has the design of their spells encroached on the potential of any Paladin spell designs?
  • For example: Duel
    • Should Arms have Duel, and if the answer is “maybe…no… probably not…” Could Duel then be redesigned for Paladins?
    • This isn’t to get Arms nerfed by any means, but to give them their own identity while simultaneously giving Paladins a better one as well. :smiley:
  • How can Spreading the Word feel more like Battlefield Commander?
  • Could Divine Toll be improved baseline to make sure Paladins aren’t locked into talents?
  • Could Blessing of Sanctuary and Blessing of Spell Warding be combined?
  • Any chance for a new Aura?
  • Any chance to upgrade other abilities like Cleanse, FoL, WoG, Divine Steed? lol

Ight I’ll be done thanks for your time. :slight_smile:

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Topic I want to talk about

That was a beautiful write up. I hope your passion and questions are heard by developers. I want to also talk about proposed changes for the Healing Hands talent for Ret and why I feel like it misses the class feel for me.
(see # numbers at the bottom for flavor text)

I am not a fan of the proposed change from the Undermine(d) Development Notes and reading what you wrote helped me better articulate why.

  • As a preliminary, if this change is solely to make ~CLASS BALANCE~ work and no other way of tuning worked well enough, then I get it. Oh well.

What you said about every class doing similar things but needing to do it in a different way really resonated with me. With this change pruning the incentive to heal your team, I know the "best" way **#1** to use this talent is to heal only myself with WoGs for bonus healing. This makes me think of WoG as being kinda like Death Strike -a button you press when you are low to sacrifice active dps for self healing.

Someone could even make the argument that if you squint, Death Strike is like a WoG you can only put on yourself, and in exchange for that you get some consolidation dps. If Death Knights had a talent that would let them donate the healing of Death Strike to an ally, some players would take it, some players would like using it, and some players would say it feels too strong/too weak.

  • All (or a vast majority of) players would agree that it doesn’t really fit the theme of Death Knight. However, the spell Raise Ally does fit the theme and is a “team help utility”

With the proposed changes in Undermine(d) WoG will still be usable on allies, and very often still be very helpful to the team. WoG will still read like a Paladin ability: #2 However trimming the incentive to heal others just feels like its pulling hard away from the Paladin class fantasy. Is there something about the powers of the Light that make it heal a Paladins trusted ally less than themselves? That feels pretty… selfish? -not sure the word to use.

Suggestions (yes I’m sorry I can’t help myself)

Let me get this out of the way, suggestions aren’t offered because I believe any of my brass tacks, hard math numbers ideas are any good, just as an aid to help see why I want something to be some way. Again, the overall goal is to keep the incentive of player power for spending a talent point to line up with the Class Fantasy. In no particular order:

  • Give the bonus healing component an internal cooldown.
    “This bonus healing cannot apply on the same target more than once every 7 seconds” - Still encourages the Paladin to help and off heal, not spammable to the point a Ret could do a Healers job (mana considerations aside) Gives added skill expression of trying to save the bonus for the best time (if possible)

  • Make the bonus healing effect use more mana.
    The mana cost of WoG is getting increased for Ret in these patch notes any way, if mana is supposed to be a considerable limiting factor for healing, let players have a choice of harder hitting WoGs that -may overheal -may make you go OOM -may make you out of mana for other blessing usage -etc but keeps the incentive and player power aspect of healing others

  • Instead of flat bonus heals, give other following sources bonus healing
    If watching a Ret bounce someone else’s hp bar back up is too strong, let the Ret’s WoG on a low health target give them the satisfaction of knowing that they are still helping the Healer (and the Team) by having subsequent healing get additional effectiveness for a short duration. This will take away some of the Rets instant feedback gratification of seeing an ally’s HP bar bounce back up but skilled healers will still know and feel when they are being helped

  • Give the bonus healing an additional requirement tied to the Rets Damage
    "You want ur bonus heals to save yourself or a teammate? Show me that you are doing something difficult or otherwise skillful besides just building holy power. Did you get any successful interrupts? Did you Hammer of Wrath any execute range targets recently? Did you keep above X% uptime on Expurgation?



    I shouldn’t overload this list as it’ll rapidly become a wall of text, but I hope this helps you see why I want to keep the incentive to heal others and what other options can be levied to reign in its power or consistency.

Flavor Text

#1 Yes the “best” way is a constantly changing situational matrix that will never actually be useful in an argument setting. I’m doing my best here ;-;

#2 “Yea they got that button thats like a big heal or something costs combo points idk man -its really annoying when they chain heal themselves in pvp just stun em or make them go OOM”

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Or just don’t change Healing Hands because it isn’t actually a problem…

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This was an easy read for such a long post. I don’t agree with every single thing, but I do agree with a lot of it, and it would be nice if the devs asked themselves these sorts of questions.

In regard to the two follow-up posts on Healing Hands, I agree with Dessta that we shouldn’t negotiate here. This is an incredibly dumb change made by someone who doesn’t understand the paladin class: it will effectively turn Ret’s WoG into Death Strike because we’ll rarely if ever cast it on allies anymore. Eternal Flame having a self-heal bonus was bad enough.

And if WoG’s mana cost is increased then shouldn’t it be made more effective? WoG is in a fine spot in PvE on live, but in PvP I don’t understand why Ret’s healing has been nerfed like six or seven times over the past few xpacs. Healing, particularly active healing, has been part of Ret’s identity since day one of WoW.

Flash of Light next patch, assuming you invest in Light’s Celerity and Selfless Healer, will heal an ally for ~10% of their total health. Who here remembers Cata when WoG had a 10-sec CD but would consistently pop an ally up from 35% to 90%? I’m not saying we need that (holy power worked differently back then as well), but 10% is so trivial, and it’s before any Mortal Strike or dampening.

Ret’s passive healing next patch, for those still willing to invest in it, will probably do, idk, 50-75k hps, down from 150-200k. Honestly that’s fine, but at the same time our active healing should be buffed instead of nerfed. The direction is completely wrong. WoG and FoL are abilities paladins learn on the road to level 10, but for Ret for the past few xpacs the devs simply refuse to take their boot off the throat of these abilities. I just don’t like the current team’s philosophy on off-healing at all.

I enjoy Ret in PvP when it feels tactical, but more and more it feels like a bruiser, like DH or Fury or something. If you try to outplay by ceasing to zug for a gcd or two you only outplay yourself. And don’t get me started on 2s. Playing with a healer, Ret will always be a couple hundred points lower than other melee because we lack the standard kit. I’m actually okay with that, but then if you partner with another DPS you’ll get clobbered, I’m talking hundreds of points lower than if you had played with a healer. Maybe 2s don’t matter, but they do highlight that Ret can’t off-heal anymore.

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Just to start I want someone to double check my reading, these are the exact same, correct?

These are from the Undermine(d) Dev notes from the 19th and then the 20th. Does anyone know exactly what is happening the Divine Hammer that is different from Live?

That out of the way, I’m very glad Divine Hammer is getting attention. I worry that this iteration is still too like the Shake the Heavens mini game of “keep using holy power abilities so a buff/ability doesn’t fall off | know when the fight is ending so you don’t over commit resources to keep the ability going”

  • Is it Dev intention to have both of these be similar play styles so Rets playing Templar can juggle both? (even though much of the same abilities trigger/sustain both)

Final opinion (so feel free to disregard)

Divine Hammers is currently very under utilized as the numbers tuning of it was lack luster this season. Getting people to “enjoy” it this season may require more than a numbers buff - It may need a new paint job or a new tacked on complexity mechanic to feel fresh. (E.g. Divine Hammers dmg increases by X% the longer it lasts; when Divine Hammers wears off it refunds some CD for Wings/Bubble/Insert fun ability here; Etc. etc.)

Completely off topic part
If the “healing Hands” talent needs to lose the Team heal utility, can it get a name change? Currently the only ‘healing hands’ are when the Paladin is healing themselves. My mind image is all my teammates looking on in disgust as the paladin rubs themselves up and down in the middle of a fight.

No wonder none of the team wants to get a WoG, that guy is creepy.

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Yeah, I think Linxy was just highlighting this change, while also updating the overall development notes to reflect it.

Divine Hammer on Live is maintained by using Holy Power Builders, to keep the Hammers spinning. The spell causes builders to reset faster and it’s generally just a button mash mini game that encourages you to ignore spenders to keep your Holy Power count high.

This change makes it so your Holy Power Spenders keep the Hammers spinning, and just becomes another button press in the bloated Paladin DPS window. :sweat_smile:

It sounds good on paper, but unless they plan to reorganize the Paladin talent tree quite a bit, and make Capstone playstyles more defined, this will just, as you said, become Empyrean Hammers 2.0.

Templar:

  • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance
  • Execution Sentence
  • Wake of Ashes + Truth’s Wake
    • AW + Hammer of Wrath
  • Hammer of Light + Empyrean Hammers
  • Divine Hammer
  • Divine Arbiter Stacks

HotS:

  • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance
  • Execution Sentence
  • Wake of Ashes + Truth’s Wake
    • Divine Purpose + AW + Hammer of Wrath
  • Divine Hammer
  • Divine Arbiter Stacks

Does Ret need yet another “ticks in the background” cooldown? =/

Again, where does Blizzard see the identity of Retribution going? Are we supposed to be this DoT type Spec? And if so, is this the best way to do that design and communicate it?

(Bonus Question: For PvP – If this becomes “meta” and damage shifts, how does this effect not having an MS? :wink: )

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do we play the same spec?

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Honestly some amazing points in this thread. I love Ret, but it feels like time and time again it just gets shoved to the side when it comes to anything other than dealing damage. Is it not the class fantasy of a Paladin to want to help your allies? Having near Spreist levels of off heals this patch felt amazing, and like I was truly getting to fulfill that class fantasy for once. If for whatever reason its too much for us also to be a high off healing class, remove/nerf the passive offheals rather than the ability to spot WoG.

The removal of the melee range increase from DF does also leave feel our mid-range status feeling awkward. Being able to full dps at almost 10yrds away really felt like a realization of that, and with its removal it feels like there’s a lot of times where all your other spells want you at range, just to realize you are at range and haven’t been autoattacking the past ten seconds.

Ultimately I would just love for Ret to have its niche truly solidified, rather than feeling like the red headed step child and always wishing you could just bring a Holy or Prot pal for all the same utility but stronger instead. Right now it feels like we have so many half measures, and anytime we start to develop that unique strength of the spec, it is instantly taken away.

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Yea, and Holy is getting Spellwarding (in PvP) and Unbound Freedom next patch. Does Ret get one of Holy’s PvP talents? How about Echoing Blessings? No? Alright then.

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Something I can up with on the paladin boards, as it always seems like a constant yo-yoing of buffing then nerfing then rebuffing paladin passive healing or offhealing capabilities.

If Paladin’s are supposed to the defensive, why not lean more into proactive damage reduction, instead of passively refilling health bars?

For example, why not have WoG give the target a aura that gives 1-5% Damage Reduction for 6 seconds for Prot and Ret, and I don’t now, something like 5-10% for Holy (since they should be expected to cast WoG more than SotR I feel).

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If bonus healing to low health targets is too impactful/“too OP” then I love the idea of incentivizing off healing/WoG usage by giving it a psudo-tank maintenance buff.

…that said the current dopamine feedback for healing hands is see someone low, WoG them, see a big crit, feel good, go back to your standard DPS zug zug. It will be a much different style of off-healing/support playstyle which may not be enjoyable to what people have come to love out of playing Ret.

Additionally, If the hypothetical dmg res % was any good, and WoG was another mitigation for the Tank like Aug currently kinda does, it may be problematic later -as Blizz is currently trying to prune some of Augs effectiveness on tank support in M+

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Which was why, in my terrible example, I made the DR something stupid small like 1-5% DR, and attached it to WoG which means it can’t have 100% uptime, like Blistering Scales.

The hope, this way by attaching it to a HP spender, means that there’s a cost to it and it would fit the supposed fantasy of a defender. If a Paladin did want to keep a near 100% DR uptime they’d have to commit to tanking their damage with no damaging spenders, which I feel would be a fine trade off.

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I can only imagine the sheer amount of time it took to write the opening post. Upvoting for effort alone.

As for Paladins feeling “unfun” from time to time? My personal reason is, “They’re so powerful and so well-balanced and so mechanically-sound with an answer to pretty much every situation… that the game suddenly isn’t much of a challenge anymore.”

There’s a reason they are more common than even BM Hunters.

Personally, I think a Paladin’s most significant weakness should be ITS MOBILITY AND MOVEMENT SPEED. That would be thematically correct while still allowing them to shine in so many other areas.

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Simply because I’m neurotic about it watching other hybrids easily reset after fights in BG Blitz compared to us, having Flash of Light doing 8-10% of someone’s health (with and without Light’s Celerity) would put us above par for other hybrids. Great gain for that spell!

As I am a Prot main, I’ve personally found spending modifier-less WoGs on party members enough to stall for time for the healer to step in. IMO, the change to WoG’s mana cost might be to put a timer on Ret’s ability to heal itself through more challenging solo content?

Not sure on that one, as it is already straining a toothless heal in PvP content that is laboring under several PvP modifiers (to WoG itself and HH). :dracthyr_shrug:

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This reasoning makes sense but also makes me think Blizz’s game design and Class design are working way out of sync.

This season of WoW, there were big pushes to create and support more single player styles of content. Delves, and to a much lesser extent, Awaking the Machine helped create new gameplay for single player experiences.

A large concern, before multiple rounds of balancing, was that delves were much too hard for classes that didn’t have hybrid style tool kits. While kind of an extreme example, Zevkir ?? was much easier on Ret with both a self poison dispel, freedom, and self WoGs (for any white swing that didn’t just one shot you).

After about a season’s worth of balancing (as well as general iLvl going up) - I hardly hear anyone complain about Delves content needing changes, even for more one dimensional specs and playstyles.

That said, I don’t understand why now, after Delves became “fine” for everyone, would Ret lose power from their Self heal in solo content. We’re the PvE mobs complaining and just now did Blizz start changing things? Is the intent to make the next pass of Delves in 11.1 back to being “too hard for fun brain off solo content | wait for iLvl” even for hybrid specs?

This was much more ramble than I wanted it to be, but I am just confused why it seems like the game design and class design is fighting rather than working together.

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PvP Feedback

Recent Skillcap video:
https://youtu.be/i2ssCgUCnuM?t=887

(Sorry for the long post, was bored at the airport. :wink: )

Problem #1: Again, just to emphasize Ret Paladin’s lack of uniqueness/strength in PvP.

  • Feedback:
    • Outside of Ret/Warrior/Monk, it so rarely feels “annoying” to fight a Paladin. Ret’s weaknesses feel extremely exploitable, giving Ret one of the highest death counts in PvP.
    • This gameplay usually makes fights scripted in “Kill the Ret” and can lead to some extremely boring, repetitive gameplay. =/
    • Nerfing Healing Hands makes this feeling even worse as that defensive support role feels more diminished.
  • Questions:
    • What is the ultimate identity you want for Ret in PvP? Is the "Defensive, plate wearing, Hybrid Healer, living up to those expectations?
    • For example:
      • Judgements of the Pure was first stealth removed from Ret going into TWW, and now being removed from Holy, do you not want Paladins to be anti-disease/poison?
    • For example:
      • Unbound Freedom was nerfed to now be dispelable again, do you not want Paladins to be anti-snare/root? (It feels like Fury has more uptime than Ret without Freedom…)

Problem #2: Homogenization of the rest of the game, while kindof excluding Paladins. >.<

  • Feedback:
    • As more and more of the game gets homogenized for PvE reasons, it never really feels like Paladins are given tools to match that of other classes.
    • Everyone having a “Freedom” and “Bubble”
    • Death Charger being a version of Diving Steed.
    • Berserker Roar being a version of BoSanc.
    • Druids getting a version of “Beacon of Light”

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Questions:
    • While the goal of this isn’t to homogenize the game even more, or play the victim, there feels like this underlining question of, where’s our “Fun Spells?”
    • Where’s Paladin’s version of:
      • Spell Reflect?
      • Intervene?
      • Rain from Above?
      • Smoke Bomb?
      • Ice Wall?
      • Thunderstorm?
      • Ring of Peace?
      • Lifegrip?
      • Deathgrip?
      • etc…
    • How do you make Paladins more engaging to play and fight against?

Recent Skillcap video:
https://youtu.be/i2ssCgUCnuM?t=887

Problem #3: Damage profile, lack of “win conditions” and lack of MS and Purge

  • Feedback:
    • Similar to what was posted above, Paladins seem to be moving more and more into this 6-8 second DPS Window.
      • Execution Sentence / Final Reckoning
      • Wake of Ashes + Truth’s Wake
      • Avenging Wrath + Radiant Glory + HoW
      • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance
      • Hammer of Light + Empyrean Hammer / Dawnlights
      • Divine Hammers (??)
  • Questions:
    • Ultimately this is a bit PvE oriented, but what’s the overall gameplay loop you’re trying to give Paladins?
    • Is there a concern that Paladin’s will become the new BM Hunter with just rotating through 4-5 cooldowns?
      • Does ES vs Divine Hammer, and FR vs Searing Light make more sense? (idk)
      • Why is Divine Hammer positioned in the Tree where it is and what do you plan to achieve with that gameplay?
    • Is there a better profile you can come up with for Paladins so we can choose a more “Holy Strike - Burst” vs a “Holyfire - DoT” playstyle?
      • Holyfire Templars??? :smiley:
    • Not to say this is bad for the overall game, as Burst can be toxic at times, but how does this lead Paladins to set up “win conditions?”
    • Paladins remain the only melee in the game without either an MS type effect or Purge, having to go through a Healer’s maximum output, how do you better balance this or ensure it’s still balanced for Paladins?

Problem #4: Dampening and how the value of an “off healer” goes down, while the value of an MS goes up.

  • Feedback:
    • This is just briefly to make note of this, but one of the downsides to playing a Class whose fantasy is “off healing,” it can really feel like the value you provide to a team becomes less and less then longer a match goes on.
  • Questions:
    • This obviously falls into that role of “what do you want Paladins to exceed at in PvP” and how does Blizzard better balance this?
    • Are there any lessons learned from Aug that you don’t want to happen to Paladins?
    • Or are there any lessons learned from Aug that you may want to replicate on Paladins?

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

PvP Talent Feedback

Talent: Luminescence

  • “Luminescence (PvP Talent) has been redesigned – Lightbearer’s healing transfer is increased by up to 200% based on your current health. Lower health heals allies for more. Now available to Holy Paladin.”

  • Feedback:

    • This talent feels like it’s compensation for Healing Hands and if that’s so, it’s kindof concerning how it locks Paladins into their 3 talents.
  • Questions:
    • Is this a fun and interesting PvP Talent that mixes up gameplay, or is this just a Spell Modifier that should be baseline when zoning into PvP?
    • is this “forcing” paladins to spec into a PvP Talent just so their Class Fantasy is actually noticeable? >.>

Talent: Shinning Revelation

  • New PvP Talent: Shining Revelation – The light reveals all enemies in stealth or invisible to you while under the effects of Divine Shield. This effect lingers for 20 seconds after Divine Shield fades.
  • Feedback:
    • I actually like this for open world PvP, believe it or not. It’s not fun to be ganked by a rogue, force bubble then have them Cloak Vanish and run away. – I think we’ve all been there. :wink:
  • Questions:
    • But is this worthy of a PvP talent in its own?
    • 3 Min cooldown spectral sight?
    • Will this bypass Cloak and Vanish-- otherwise what’s the point?
    • Does this not highlight other problems within World of Warcraft regarding Stealth being a permanent buff, Arena Truesight Eyes, etc?
    • Could this be attached to another Talent or make Bubble do more?

Talent: Spreading the Word

  • Feedback:
    • Blessing of Spellward and Blessing of Sanctuary make Paladins pretty hard locked into PvP Talents, but it would be kindof cool if this talent rounded that whole fantasy off. Emphaizing in Blessings…
  • Questions:
    • Is there a unique buff Blizzard could add to this PvP Talent for Blessing of Spellwarding and Blessing of Sanctuary?
    • Is there more Blizzard could add to make this feel more universal like Battlefield Commander?

Ret PvP Talents

Talent: Aura of Reckoning

  • Feedback:
    • Aura of Reckoning being removed is one of the most concerning PvP Changes for Paladins. This is our defecto PvP Talent that Ret uses to push out more damage, more healing, and to break up the more scripted cooldown trading in PvP.
    • It’s never felt like a real Aura, like Devo or even Moonkin Aura, but it’s been vital to the Paladin class enough that it feels like it needs something big to compensate for its removal. =/
  • Questions:
    • Are there any plans to add something offensively to make up for this PvP Talent?
    • How does Ret break up that mold of trading cooldowns without this RNG?
    • Are there any plans to introduce a new Aura? Blessings? Seals? Etc…
    • Are there any plans to enhance existing cooldowns that feel underwhelming like ES, FR, or Divine Toll?

Talent: Lawbringer

  • Feedback:
    • Removing this is kindof w/e as it’s been nerfed into the ground and probably hard to balance given Judgement’s talents, but it does feel bad to lose something that had synergy with Divine Toll.
  • Questions:
    • Again, any love for the other Paladin cooldowns?

Talent: Blessing of Sanctuary

  • Feedback:
    • This talent is really strong, it’s fun to use, and does a good job of aiding paladins in expressing a skill cap. But as more and more classes gain AoE Anti-CC abilities… it’s starting to feel a bit dated at times.
  • Questions:
    • As more and more of the game gets homogenized, where do you see Paladins and their Single Target utility niche fitting in?
    • How do you compare BoSanc to Berserker Roar, Mass Dispel, Tremor Totem, Reverse Magic, Mass Invis, etc…

Talent: Ultimate Retribution

  • Feedback:
    • This feels dated ever since Paladins got a Battle Rez. It has very little purpose in any PvP situation.
  • Questions:
    • What’s “Retribution” about a battle rez? :sweat_smile:
    • Any chance this gets a redesign? lol

Holy PvP Talents:

Talent: Blessed Hands (Holy)

  • Feedback:
    • It’s interesting that this is being removed as Holy Paladins have had this long standing identity of being a “Cooldown Rotating Spec.”

  • Questions:

    • Obviously the Healing profile of Paladins is changing, and Paladins are gaining BoSpellwarding which is huge, but what does this mean for the identity of Paladins?
    • Will Paladins receive more anti-interrupt or anti-CC measures to ensure that they can get off more heals and don’t have to rely so much on cooldown rotating?
    • At least, is that on the radar?
    • With the removal of Blessed Hands, will BoP see a shorter cooldown baseline?

Talent: Blessing of Spellwarding (Holy)

  • Feedback:
    • This is awesome to be coming to Holy. As a Healer and fighting caster cleaves, it felt like BoP was just a wasted ability on my hot bar and that never felt fun.
  • Questions:
    • I’m excited to see how this works out, but the point of this is to give feedback and ask questions, do you feel like BoP and BoSW sharing a cooldown, reduces Paladin cooldowns too much?
      • Compared to like having 2 charges of Pain Suppression
    • Is there a world where Paladins have both Blessings and how would that play out?
    • Considering all Paladins will have access to BoSW again, is it worth taking another look at adding this to the Class Tree?
    • Is there a different version of BoP or BoSW you’d like to try out? Redesign? AoE? etc…

Talent: Darkest before Dawn

  • Feedback:
    • Darkest before Dawn, Unending Light, and Breaking Dawn feel as if they could merge.
  • Questions:
    • LoD is pretty underwhelming across the board, is there a chance these 3 talents could be revisited?

Talent: Divine Vision

  • Feedback:
    • Divine Vision, Divine Reach (Class Talent), and Unwavering Spirit feel as if they could
      merge.
    • Paladin Auras have been pretty underwhelming and them basically being our “Raid Buffs” kindof makes the range addition to Auras feel like a “hidden tax.”
  • Questions:
    • Similar to above, could these 3 talents be revisited?

Talent: Cleanse the Weak

  • Feedback:
    • This talent felt good for a few weeks, but the arms race of DoTs and Dispel mechanics has made this “Kiss/Curse” effect pretty inefficient.
    • The extra 4 seconds hardly feels worth, when every DoT class has somekind of backlash or DoTs are just instantly reapplied.
  • Questions:
    • Again, tying into everything a Paladin is supposed to be strong at, what role was Cleanse the Weak, Judgements of the Pure, A just Reward, Righteous Protection, etc… supposed to fill?
    • Do you want Paladins to be Anti DoT or at least Anti Disease and Poison, and if so, how do you make that work in modern WoW?
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Great post, and wow, a Skill Capped video that’s interesting and not grating. I particularly agree with you that Ret’s dispels have been overly diminished, Beserker Roar invades Blessing of Sanctuary’s design space, Shining Revelation needs work, etc.

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This is actually a really brilliant solution. I’m imagining a new passive, maybe even a reworked Ret aura of sorts:

“Redemption Aura: 10% of all damage you deal is stored as healing(up to 30% of your maximum HP), and expended when you heal allies with Word of Glory”

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Retribution(pvp) How “good” buttons feel to press for me personally is directly related to how well they facilitate moving heathbars in pvp. When I push offensive abilities I want to see enemies health deminish, when I use precious GCDs to heal myself or others I want to see healthbar movement. At the moment Ret fails on both if the target can heal or reduce incoming damage for a very long time, and Retribution does not seem durable enough to have a really long time to wait out enemy’s defensives. Design improvements are nice when they come, but tuning included pvp nerfs are ensuring buttons cannot feel impactful.

Protection(pve) Avenger’s Shield should grant holy power. Healing output should be higher.
Protection(pvp) having almost no defensives function with a orb or flag ensures Prot Paladin sees very little battleground play. This is worsened by the Armor nerf in pvp for all plate specs and the increased damage taken for all tanks, and the lack of instant mobility for all paladins.

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Feedback: Class Fantasy (Retribution)

Again, this will be a lengthy post, but I’ll try to keep each individual point pretty short as it’s a topic I’ve probably beat to death these last few patches, but with the new visual updates other Classes are getting, and with 11.1 really not looking like an exciting Patch for Paladins… (especially PvP Talents)

Figured its worth a mention.

I’m going to focus on Retribution here, but I do wish Hpal got better fantasy of Melee vs Caster, and Prot got better fantasy of Heavenly Strength, Spellbreaker Warglaives :eyes:, Holyfire vs Holy, etc… as well.

NOTE:
This is a post about Class Fantasy in light of the new animations, etc… that we’ve been seeing on other Classes.

Auras:

Problem #1: Auras are not Iconic Class abilities.

  • Feedback:
    • Say you removed Druid’s Travel form tomorrow, the community would implode… It’s an iconic Druid Form that’s been integrated into the class all these years.
    • Say you removed Crusader Aura tomorrow… the community probably wouldn’t even notice or hardly care.
    • Auras come and go.
  • Questions:
    • Why aren’t Auras ever expanded on to be more like a Druid Form?
    • Couldn’t all Auras grant 3% DR, a slight additional raid buff, while the majority of it be deticated to the Paladin?
      • Example:
        Crusader Aura
        • Reduces all damage taken by 3% and increases mounted movement speed by 20% for all allies within 40 yards.
        • In addition Crusade also increase your movement speed by x%.
    • We have:
      • Merciful Auras (Holy)
      • Lightforged Blessing
      • Judgment of Light
      • Golden Path
      • Lightbearer
        • Could any of these be merged and/or redesigned into a new Aura? (again, keeping that global 3% DR)
    • Could Lightbearer be expanded on to be an Aura Upgrade?
    • Could Luminescence [PvP Talent] be expanded on to be an Aura Upgrade?
    • Why do Battle Standards have Aura Graphics and Paladins don’t? LOL

Seals

Problem #1: Seals aren’t doubled down on and the Retribution Paladin Mastery (maybe all Paladins) feels like it could’ve been a “Seal Proc” instead of over burdening Player Animation with Exorcism graphic.

  • Feedback:
    • Seals have historically been a pretty iconic aspect to the Paladin Class Fantasy, giving unique Judgement debuffs, players buffs, animations, etc…
    • While progress has been made in the Paladin trees, it doesn’t feel great having things be labeled Seal of ________ only for it to be some random passive.
    • It doesn’t feel great having abilities that resemble Seals not feel like they’ve taken the extra step to add more depth to the class.
  • Questions:
    • Why didn’t Blizzard design Seal of the Crusader and Seal of Light (Judgement of Light) as actual Seals on a Choice node?
    • Would this be an interesting Choice Node that gives flexibility to add spec specific Seals within the Class Tree? (Seal of Wisdom for Holy, etc…)
    • Why do Shamans have Weapon Imbues, Rogues have Poisons, DKs have Runeforging, etc… but Seals are considered dated?
    • Why was Exorcism used as the Ret Mastery instead of a SoC proc type effect?
    • Is there any chance a Seal, or Seal Twisting could come back as a PvP Talent?

Blessings

Problem #1: We have no Offensive Blessings.

  • Feedback:
    • While the current Blessing do feel fun and impactful, in PvE, their use is pretty niche. If you’re running solo content, or content your group isn’t “struggling with” then BoSac and BoP’s value really goes down. They can easily be abilities you don’t press a single time…
  • Questions:
    • Is there any room to add more offensive Blessings to the Paladin Class?
    • If Blizzard could redesign Necrolord’s Banner (Warrior Covenant ability) as a Paladin’s Blessing of Might— what would that look like?
    • Is there any chance Blessing of Seasons is renamed, Split apart and pieces put into the Class Tree?
    • Is there any chance for a New PvP Talent Blessing, replacing one of the other Paladin’s Cooldowns such as Final Reckoning, ES, etc…
    • Is there any chance Divine Toll could be on a choice node with a Blessing?
      • Example: Convoke and Incarnation and how those talents function

Retribution Fantasy

Problem #1: Physical vs Holy vs Holystrike vs Radiant

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Feedback:
    • One of the interesting things this patch if Players didn’t catch it is, the DH Talent Any means necessary is getting removed. This is the talent that changes all DH abilities into Chaos Damage
    • While I assume most DH abilities were Chaos to begin with and this was probably dated… it begs the question has the philosophy for these types of talents changed?
  • Questions:
    • What is the significance to Paladins using 4 different schools of magic and how do you better communicate that?
    • Is there a better, more concise, theme of Holystrike vs Radiant builds you can offer Paladins that has rotational impact and meaning?
    • Why is Blades of Light called Blades of Light? What’s the significance to that and how do you better inform the average player of what Holystrike actually is?
      • Why does Holystrike not bypass BoP, etc…?
    • Burning Crusade changes Divine Storm and Consecration into a Radiant ability, how do you better inform the player that this is happening? What’s the significance to this?
      • Example is Defile vs Death and Decay
    • How do you better mix the Radiant and Holystrike into the Paladin Fantasy?
    • At what point does changing the function of an ability warrant a new spell icon, animation, etc…?

Problem #2: Crusading Strikes vs Templar Strikes, Blessed Champion

  • Feedback:
    • Templar Strikes doesn’t feel like it has a very fluid rotation, and similar to Hammer of Light, doesn’t feel like a 1-2 combo… but again this is mainly about Class Fantasy.
    • The fantasies feel like there’s a very big contradiction and don’t feel like they synergize very well
      • Appose to something like Templar Bash → Templar’s Strike, or w/e
  • Questions:
    • Why is Templar Strike, using “Slashes” in the Radiant school of magic? lol
      • While I understand Templar Strikes came first, there isn’t a lot of consistency and coherency within the Paladin Class.
    • Blades of Light causes the Holystrike aspect to kindof roll over into the Radiant Aspect and I assume the spell gets a bit sloppy at that point… how are these abilities better communicated to the player?
    • Is there much of a purpose to these spell modifiers or could the spell themselves just active Divine Arbiter and Searing Light, etc…?
    • Blessed Champion also doesn’t really feel like it’s communicated well. There’s no animation or altered spell effect like Overpower and Deadnaught.
      • Is there a better way to design this spell to indicate the Paladin is actually cleaving?

Problem #3: Blades of Justice

  • Feedback:
    • Blades of Justice feels like an unorganized spell.
      Blade of Justice
      • Improved Blades of Justice
      • Holy Blade
      • Expurgation
      • Blades of Vengeance
      • Consecrated Blade
  • Questions:
    • Why is Blades of Justice not in the Radiant School of Magic?
    • Why is it a Holyfire Blade that comes up out of the ground??
    • Improved Blades of Justice
      • Always have to ask, would this not be better as “Templar Strikes?” (Reimagined, with Crusader Strike getting Fires of Justice, etc…)
      • Two charges, deals XYZ ____ damage, combo, etc…
    • Holy Blade:
      • Why is Holy Blade not Exorcism?
      • Scourge Strike upgrades into Clawing Shadows with a new visual, icon, etc… Why not Holy Blade?
      • Why choose Exorcism for the Ret Mastery and not this?!!? :smiley:
    • Blades of Vengeance
      • Again, the fantasy purposes, is there any way to make this a more noticeable ability?
      • Could BoJ be replaced with a new AoE ability with all new animations, etc?
    • Similar to everything else, could Imp BoJ and Holy Blade be made into a more purposeful Radiant vs Holy (DoT vs Instant damage) playstyle?
    • Any chance Consecrated Blade could get a toggle on/off button?

Problem #4: Judgement feels like Holy Hammer

  • Feedback:
    • While not as bad as Prot cause Ret rarely uses Imp Judgement…with the abundance of Greater Judgement, mainly from Divine Toll, and the background feeling of Judgement of Justice and Judgement of Light (not being Seals). Judgement no longer feels like condemning the enemy with a debuff.
    • This is slightly made worse by the new Mastery that adds an addition Blast of Holy Energy.
  • Questions:
    • Does Blizzard feel like the identity of Judgement has kindof been washed out?
    • How do you bring back that feeling of actually “Judging a target” instead of just throwing some Holy looking Hammer at them? =/
    • With Greater judgement Debuff, Judgment of Light, judgement of Justice’s slow and speed increase, how do you put more emphasize on each of these effects?
    • Again, is Judgement of Light a bit dated and could that be Seal of Light?
    • Should Consecrated Ground and Judgement of Justice share a choice node?
    • Could the movement speed from Judgement of Justice be shifted into the class tree as Pursuit of Justice with Obduracy, Lead the Charge, etc…
    • How do you separate Divine Toll from Judgement so that there isn’t so much redundancy in a singular spell?
    • How do you separate Blessed Champion from Divine Toll?
    • Any chance for Judgement to get its old animation back to better distinguish the ability from Hammer of Wrath?

Problem #5: Templar’s Verdict vs Final Verdict vs Justicar’s Vengeance

  • Feedback:
    • While Final Verdict is a great ability, the short lifespan of Templar’s Verdict doesn’t feel all that great. This is only made worse by having Final Verdict vs JV not be an actual compelling choice.
    • You get Templar’s Verdict at level 10 and by level 14 or whatever, you unlock Final Verdict and it’s like oh, this is such a better ability why didn’t I just have this from the start?
    • For being our main Holy Power spender, FV vs JV doesn’t feel like something exciting to look forward to and build around, just another filler talent.
  • Questions:
    • For two expansions now… why is Justicar’s Vengeance designed how it is?
    • Is there a better Holy vs Holyfire/Radiant design that could be achieved here?
    • If these aren’t going to be compelling choices, why not just start Paladins with Final Verdict at level 10?
    • Could these abilities have different secondary effects?
    • Could these abilities be placed better in the tree?
    • Could these abilities at least have the same range and damage? lol
    • Is the animation Final Verdict + Jurisdiction conveying the spell properly?

Problem #6: Divine Storm

  • Feedback:
    • Similar to Blade of Justice, Divine Storm feels a bit overburden and unorganized.
      Divine Storm
      • Tempest of the Lightbringer
      • Inquisitor’s Ire
      • Holy Flames
      • Burning Crusade
      • Empyrean Power
      • Empyrean Legacy
    • In terms of Class Fantasy, Inquisitor’s Ire, Holy Flames, and Burning Crusade are the abilities of note that kindof don’t feel like they hold any weight.
    • Again giving an example, things like Brutal Slash feel more impactful and noticeable, it feels like an upgrade.
  • Questions:
    • Similar to everything here, is there a better Holy vs Holyfire theme that could be achieved with these talents?
    • Are these talents on appropriate choice nodes?
    • Could Inquisitor’s Ire or Holy Flames upgrade Divine Storm into a new ability, sharing a choice node with Tempest? (a good ability)
    • What’s the underlining significance to Burning Crusade changing DS into a Radiant ability?

Problem #7: Wake of Ashes… the most iconic Paladin ability to exist is somehow the odd one out, lol?

  • Feedback:
    • Wake of Ashes is no doubt the most iconic Retribution ability, and while it’s gotten a bit overburden, its still a very fun ability to press.
    • It does all the things you’d want it to do, but outside of this singular spell, the Ashbringer and Swords have kindof fallen to the wayside.
    • It doesn’t feel great being the only Fire-Sword effect in a long list of Holy Hammers.
    • It doesn’t feel great having the Seething Flames effect persist on your character while mashing the Hammer of Light button, or worse, overriding that animation.
      • Again, Hammer of Light is not a fun, fluid combo to experience and just compacts everything into that 2 GCD press. =/
    • The animation feels a bit too much like a “puff of smoke” then this righteous wave of Holy Fire.

  • Questions:

    • Do you think there could be a better balance between Holy and Holyfire spells Paladins have?
      • Example is obviously Shamans and their mixture of Fire, Ice, and Earth Totem
    • How do you balance the Swords vs Hammers when the Ashbringer exists?
      • Is the answer more of that Cosmetic Glyph/Skin?
    • As animators and VFX artists, is there more “weight” you could give to Wake of Ashes?

Problem #8: Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning

  • Feedback:
    • Again, as mentioned in the previous posts, these abilities don’t feel all that engaging to press.

  • Questions:

    • Any chance we see a new animation for Final Reckoning?
    • Could Final Reckoning call down a barrage of Holy Swords? or Holy Bolts?
    • Could Final Reckoning be pushed more towards a Holyfire type ability?
    • Could Execution Sentence get more player engagement?
      • Abom Limb, Bladestorm, Convoke, etc…
    • Any chance for PvP Talents to effect or change these abilities?
      • Death from Above, etc…

Problem #9: Hero Talents

  • Feedback:
    • Just to keep this short because I’ve already spoken to this above.
    • Dawnlights don’t feel noticeable for Paladins, appose to WoA empowering your TV and DS abilities. (IE: Diabloist Warlocks)
    • Sun’s Avatar doesn’t feel like a capstone talent, I don’t think anyone really plays around it much and it’s honestly felt like it’s fallen short for any sort of Hero Talent theme. =/
    • The Wake of Ashes + Seething Flames + Wings + Searing Light, etc… → Hammer of Light combo doesn’t feel fluid and feels like sensory overload
  • Questions:

HoTS:

  • Is there a chance Dawnlight could empower your Holy Power finishers, turning abilities into Holyfire effects?
  • Do you feel like Sun’s Avatar, or this Hero Talent tree at all, has had the impact you want?
    • Everything just feels like unnoticeable filler. =/

Templar:

  • How do you spread out that Wake of Ashes + Hammer of Light GCD clump?
  • How do you make that a better experience than the current button mash spam?
  • Should Hammer of Light replace WoA completely for a full “Templar - Physical/Holy” Paladin type feel?
  • Could Hammer of Light see a better animation? (Last Epoch’s Forge Guard)
  • Where’s that “Physical” aspect to Templar?
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