Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
202

It’s not to get Arms nerfed by any means, I just think it’s an overall interesting topic.

Just as a discussion, not saying anything needs to change, I just wonder if Arms has too many “defensive” style talents, and if those should be redesigned and if doing so, does that open the door for any new Paladin abilities…

Prime Example is the PvP Talent Duel.

Duel
20 yd range
Instant 1 min cooldown

You challenge the target to a duel. While challenged, all damage you and the target deal to all targets other than each other is reduced by 50%. Lasts 12 sec.

Thematically, I get why Warriors would have Duel as a talent, but again as just a point of discussion, even though the talent isn’t really that good, and hardly ever taken, could this be repurposed for Paladins in some way?

I think it’s great Warriors have things like Champion’s Spear, Intervene and Rally, but slightly question if things like Duel, Safeguard, and Master and Commander, are misplaced. Again, does it give Arms too much “defensive potential?”

Also, again just for the sake of discussion, things like Dragon’s Charge going to Arms, while Ret doesn’t get Steed of Glory?

Dragon Charge
Replaces Heroic Leap
Instant 45 sec recharge
1 Charges

Run at high speed at a distance in front of you. All enemies in your path will take (70% of Attack power) Physical damage and be knocked back.

vs

Steed of Glory
Requires level 20

Your Divine Steed lasts for an additional 2 sec.

While active you become immune to movement impairing effects, and you knock back enemies that you move through.

Why does Arms get their knock back Prot Talent, but Paladins don’t? Which makes more sense? One or the other? Both?

Ultimately it comes down to the topic of engaging abilities, and why Paladin’s never feel like they get first dibs. :innocent:

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203

Oh I don’t think your trying to get Arms nerfed. As I said I’m not here to fight paladins but the two things your comparing is an ability VS a talent that extends and makes you immune to movement effects. If you frost nova a dragon charging warrior you stop them from getting to you. Its just every class has its upside and down sides.

204

Ret had been losing that theme and identity since DF ret rework. One of our themes is we hit things with big hammer infused with light magic. Since DF rework and the forced use of FV into our rotation, ret is more of a “Dance with big hammer and watch the light hit the enemy from a distance sometimes” rather then that knight that wants retribution up close and personal feel.

Until they cast avatar and charge, or relentless pursuit or even bladestorm. Warriors still has that guarantee to get to their target. The only thing you really stopped a warrior from doing is area of control a crowd. Which unless your in a BG with lots of people around, don’t do much.

You frost nova a paladin after freedom is spell stolen there is nothing a paladin can do except cast a defensive too early which could cost them the match.

This is something that does bother me, on why steed of glory is prot only. Even holy paladins could benefit from such a talent. Although for rets trying to use steed to gap close could be actually harmful to them (what if you knock back the guy your trying to get to lol.)

Love your posts btw, you do allot better articulating then I do.

So I wanted to add something to the discussion after I reviewed the ptr pvp talents from the other paladin specs, we have less pvp talents then the other 2 tree’s;

holy has 12 pvp talent choices.

prot has 13 pvp talent choices.

ret has 8 choices.

we have 1/3rd less choices then our other tree’s and prot, the tree we don’t use pvp in at all nor balanced for pvp, has more choices then us. This needs to be fixed.

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205

again, thats a perfectly fine theme. your a holy warrior of the light using your light abilities to smite your foes. the spec with arguably the best visuals in the game highlighting its theme with the light. if your “theme” depends on target range then frankly you should probably rethink your priorities. your actively trying to trade QOL for a clunky fantasy and theme which is probabl ythe worst thing you can do for a spec

fv was always apart of the rotation, what are you talking about?

206

should post on my paladin in these threads but whatever.

207

Don’t misqoute me please. That is disrespectful. If you read the entire thing you’d know we are losing that theme.

FV was optional to take before DF, TV was always the base finisher. FV was forced since DF remake.

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im not misquoting, the “theme” were losing is legit just melee range. am i incorrect? it seems like you dislike the fact we have the qol of having range

FV was fighting against alot of stronger talents in the last row before the ret rework. there wasnt a option. before df, FV was the better lego to use in SL, was extremely liked in WoD thats why it was baked into baseline TV for legion and bfa.

i hardly find being “forced” to take FV to be a issue, fv is really good and the alternative is JV which has always been a meme since its inception in mop

209

is the whole part also, we are PALADINS. Our themes is WARRIORS of the light, we are losing the WARRIOR part also;

Is not a QoL change. Our literal talents works against being ranged. Please look up;

Empyrean power
Art of War
Divine Arbiter
Crusading Strikes
Templar’s strikes
Seal of the Crusader
Heart of the Crusader

and many more that requires us to be in melee.

FV looks like we are swinging the air for a giant toy hammer to hit the foe for us. It looks dumb.

Not really. There was people choosing it and succeeding. The difference is it’s forced on us because of these reasons;

The base damage between JV, TV, and FV had been changed in FV’s favor. Skipping FV is a large damage loss just from the base damage alone.

There was tier sets in DF that literally did not work with TV and JV.

At the first part of the rework, JV’s base damage did the same as FV. The reason why JV had always been a meme is because blizzard keep unbalancing the damage of JV. The same is true for TV, it did the same damage as FV. Thus making taking FV a choice.

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210

Trade you our new Warbreaker animation. Magic weapons fly away from your enemies.

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211

The recent legion + warriors using magic idea had been pretty bad, so i agree they need to knock that off too and ho back to conan the barbarian themes with them.

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212

Brother please, I know nobody is taking this thread seriousky as patch launches in a week but stop with the forum infighting. Comment on what op said or give feedback

WANT SOME REAL FEEDBACK?

HAMMER OF LIGHT IS NOT BENEFITTING FROM JUDGEMENT AND DAWN leading it to deal way way less damage. This is a gamebreaking change or bug. Blizzard please clarify if this is intended or not

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213

Oh absolutely, and it’s not me trying to avoid responsibility. I’m just trying to draw attention to the things that I don’t think make sense, in hopes that the developers can see it and make any changes if they deem it necessary.

Steed of Liberty

Class Talent

Divine Steed also grants Blessing of Freedom for 3.0 sec.

vs

Steed of Glory

Protection Paladin PvP Talent

Your Divine Steed lasts for an additional 2 sec.

While active you become immune to movement impairing effects, and you knock back enemies that you move through.

These are very similar talents, with very similar effects. Protection Paladins running Steed of Liberty and Steed of Glory don’t really need to double up on the immunity aspect. Even though it’s a choice and could argue it provides flexibility, it still feels a bit redundant.

Could Steed of Glory see a re-evaluation, and maybe a redesign, and in doing so, could it become something new and engaging for the whole Class?

Paladins are an easy class, and fun to play, but when you analyze the design after two major reworks, they still feel a bit sloppy. :smiley:

(Things such as this, the Divine Wrath vs Radiant Glory nodes, etc…)

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214

See we can agree. :slight_smile:

215

thats subjective, also its still a qol cause your not supposed to stay in africa with these abilties. your supposed to get back to your target but have the range to make that downtime feel less bad. its qol to close distance

216

post logs of this

217

So you agree it’s useless then? Also you need to acknoledge that without fv’s/boj supporting talents (which requires to be in melee to work) you won’t move hp bars. The cake is a lie dude.

Using it at range wastes it’s full potential. It still feels bad. In fact it makes you feel like you lack skill, which is worse.

Your not closing distance with range skills.

You can look up the skills in history. The 4 skills had similar base damage. It was after 10.7 where blizzard unbalanced the 3 choices and paladins pointed it out angrily. Of course back then you celebrated paladins leaving melee playstyle while mocking those that called it out.

And with the base damage of the 3 being the same logs doesn’t matter from then unless you want to make the bold claim we dps at range back then.

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218

its very much not useless (im tyranis btw) its to make downtime feel less bad as you get to the boss. its existence is nothing but a net positive. its quality of life even if you dont like it

again subjective af, its nice to be able to slam boj and fc at range as you get to the boss to keep busy with your rotation.

post logs, i dont want your stories. post logs of people using FV in a competative and useful ways. show me these “builds” you keep talking about.

219

In pvp yes it is. Everyone has so much self healing that we barely move bars.

While throwing away procs and not being close enough to get art of war.

Sorry, but it’s worse then bad.

EP is wasted if used at range. Art of war is another you can’t get range. Seal of the crusader is also useless at range. Also wasn’t you that constantly complains FV alone don’t do damage since you could just use a generator instead?

You can literally look up spell history on wowpedia or wowwiki.

The 3 spells did the same base damage on 10.0.7

Also, if your gonna say it like that, then i will thriw it right back at you, i don’t want to hear your stories on how great and paladiny it is.

Cause it ain’t

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220

again im talking strictly pve not pvp. pvp even then range has a niche

again its quality of life

again i feel like im speaking in another language. im not saying your going to spend forever in range, your literally using one or two globals in range while you get to the boss to continue the engine. its literally just so your not doing anything whille getting to a boss

i want logs, show me a log where FV was used in a competative content. show me a log of a “haste” or “crit” build. show me proof of this. if you cant provide proof fopr your claims then stop making them

221

Pve too, since you like to talk about skill ceiling. One of the challenges of melee is staying in melee.

Again not really.

Also skill ceiling.

You mean just like any other melee that presses the gap closing button? Like charge or feral lounge?

Only difference is, if your procs is not up your doing damage. We need to up the skill ceiling or respect the talents we have are not met for range play.

And i am saying go look up spell descriptions. I am not obligated to entertain your demands.

10.0.7 spell descriptions. Tv/jv/fv did the same damage. It was a choice to take. Go cry me a river.