Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
182

That’s not how the hybrid tax works. It’s baised on roles that can be performed (dps, tank, heals)

How many specs has nothing to do with it.

DH’s having 2 specs would be effected by the hybrid tax should it still being used as a balance tool due to being able to either (not both) tank or dps.

If that is the case, you’d also know druids where the most powerful healer in pvp with 2 dps specs that played well during it’s existing duration. It is also one of a few classes with incredibly powerful anti cc defenses.

Like druids was? They where broken for most of it’s history.

So druids.

You do not know how ret is treated through out WoW history. And atm it is unplayable at meaning competitive pvp content. If I wanted to compete, I could not ho further then 1800 as ret. There was only one mayve two exceptions to this rule on the boards, but even then they also state they do it with a huge handicap and need their team mates to even function.

If I where to pvp, I would need another class to just be able to move around. And that is no fun to anyone, nor balanced in a game where most classes movement skills tripled since df.

Blizzards reason about giving us jurisdiction is because they wanted to force steed on us and admitted it was a band-aid and not the solution.

183

Good morning. Are you drunk? Somebody get me a translator for this!

If I fill in the gaps with a lot of assumptions, what you’re saying still doesn’t make sense. A good sized portion of a hybrids hybridness is healing and we don’t do it outside of a very long cool down, LoH.

What hybrid means in the context of World of Warcraft is a DPS/Healer. Half healer is not WoG and FoL healing for nothing (in pvp) and LoH which is good but not great as healers need to heal more than once every 4 min or so. Ret use to have the healing in pvp, and was far more durable, like a hybrid DPS/Healer should expect to be.

184

Would anyone here be willing to make a dedicated “what Ret needs for PvP post”? - Or work with me while I summarize and wrote up your thoughts?

This PvP discussion is intresting to me (and I wish Blizz would have a better chance of seeing it, instead of 200 posts down a thread)… but I just don’t PvP and I don’t think im qualified enough

185

Again I would benefit greatly from a translator for a lot of this.
The only part here that might be correct is Balance Druid doesn’t get to be more durable like a healer, even though I feel like it is a hybrid. It doesn’t go about things the Retribution or Augmentation way of helping allies, closer to the melee fighters.

186

It’s basically these quiestions;

Does ret’s need a gap closer dispite having “range”? Why does paladins has “range” if all the talents for the skills that is given range requires to be in melee to be effective? (Such as ep’s requirement to be in melee for full effect when using FV. Or CSSA/art of war not working at all from range.)

Should paladin utility/defenses be looked at due to how easily they are countered? Being mostly dispellable from half the classes in game?

How steed is a joke on paladins now since DK’s has a better varient, and how steed should be balanced should the paladin gets feared, rooted, etc?

Should the paladins pvp modifiers be adjusted since they are left untouched since SL, particularly the healing spell ones that makes our healing obsolete in pvp same applies to the pvp modifier on our defensives?

Should paladins have better self healing then current to better equal non-hybrid classes superior self healing?

Why do we constantly have our pvp talents removed with nothing to replace them? Why are the ones we are getting this patch so poor such as the bubble anti-stealth one?

Also why does blizzard continues to not properly balance ret correctly for pvp and pve dispite their old stance that 1 dps spec pet class must be balanced for both forms of content?

Edit: oh yeah, i forgot about this one. Since our uptime in melee on our target is low, and most classes self healing is so sufficient we don’t move health bars much, should we have an MS skill? (I personally don’t think we need MS as long as we can an gap closer, not to mention MS goes against our class fantasy)

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187

gap closer is the modern ver of the ret needs mortal strike vanilla whine

188

First off, ret’s been asking for gap closers since vanilla. So this isn’t “modern ret whine” espaicially since every class except priests tripled their movement skill set.

Second off rets never needed mortal strike.

189

But this is the issue Greatbrae you have a gap closer. I know you don’t like it say its going to be CCed but so is everyone but rogues cause Shadowstep is instant. I see someone charge me I fear them. That’s just PVP in a nutshell. There was a reason the Venthyr version of Shadowstep had a wind up to it. That thing would have been broken if it was instant like a rogues ability. But at the end of the day you still have a gap closer. Warriors have 2. Charge and Leap. The reason we have 2 is vs a paladins one is ours can be CCed on the way. You have Freedom you can use to ignore things like frost nova or other slowing effects. And yes I know your going to tell me it gets dispelled. That once again is part of PVP tell me if you had purge and saw someone coming at you with a bunch of buffs that you wouldn’t use it to lessen the chance they get to you?

190

Steed is no gap closer. It’s a movement skill sure, but no gap closer. Gap closers are more of an guarantee to get to the target. You steed, you get rooted/snared/feared/poly/etc. In fact you get feared on steed abd it becones a free gap opener for the caster!

Charge is instant (druids has a version of it too). DG is instant with DK’s. You mentioned shadowstep already, dashing strike on monks, sigil of chains for DH’s, survival hunters has harpoon, enhancement shaman has feral lounge, do i need to list more?

No we do not. It is not a garantee to get to the target and is hard countered. A proper gap closer is garanteed to close the gap to the target it does not necessarily mean i move to point a to b. It just makes it so i am in melee range of the foe.

Over half the classes in the game removes it instantly. At best it is a gcd root/snare removal. But both snares and roots is spamable.

Yes… the only self root/snare immune in the game that does. Which is why it’s a joke that DK’s gets the same steed as us, but also has a true immunity to snare roots during that cannot be dispelled… on a class that blizzatd stated that is not meant to be mobile.

Yes, but no one is hard countered by purge!

Edit; listed the wrong spec for hunters.

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191

I don’t think we agree on what instant is. >_< Shadowstep is instant the others have a travel time some shorter than the others but the only one I know that is really instant is shadowstep.

While I agree that is PVP for you. As I said if you had purge tell me you wouldn’t spam it to remove others buffs?

The big issue is your only looking at the downside to your class and refuse to say anything good about your class so it begs the question… why play it if you think its so super weak? And no Im not attacking you here Im just asking a question. I personally play for fun if Im not having fun I will swap classes. Thats why I ask.

192

Most buffs that can be purged is HoT, raid buffs, and healer absorbs. Not major class mechanical defensives or anti cc.

Cannot do our job as dps in pvp due to how easy to kite us. Our defensives can be 100% negated. We as warriors of light has less self healing then other classes. We are classified as melee, but given range with melee only mechanics. Our best non-negatable utility we bring is a measely 3% damage reduction that can be ignored in pvp. Our healing and defensives has pvp modifiers making them so weak that thry are a waste to take (i mean come on dp is a 10% damage reduction in pvp) while i am sure we might have something to offer our cons far, far, far outweigh the pro’s. We cannot do damage to anything or stay in melee without another class help, and that is if they have the ability to do so. As such we cannot fulfill our role as DPS in pvp. Such a thing does not exist for any other class in the game.

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193

I stopped maining Ret after the week of Ret nerfs in DF, barely played it since, because I play MM for now.

Why play Ret when instead:
I can heal for more, my defensives are not dispellable, I have 7 more enemy movement tools that are not knockbacks, I have 2 knockbacks, I have near instant movement from disengage and a run fast ability with Aspect of the Cheetah, I can have double the range, I have a faster base run speed, run 30% faster when out of combat 4 seconds, I have invisability, I have MS, and I have a dispell to instantly remove BoP on a cooldown WAY shorter than BoP.

It is totally logical to ask for improvements for a spec you see is designed pooly or tuned to be quite week, and still play it if it is what you like, or not play it because it doesnt work for all content.

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194

While I don’t think they are as bad as you think they are I at least feel we can discuss it. The hunter choose not to discuss it so they are dead to me.

195

You told me I was wrong when you know i’m not and I didn’t appreciate it. That’s why you don’t want to talk to me. If Hunters end up getting as many pvp specific nerfs as Retribution, maybe I’ll go play Warrior for a bit and then they’ll nerf that. And you forgot to mention earlier that Intervene exists. There’s another near instant mobility option Warriors can utilize that’s unavailable for Ret.

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196

They are not wrong. While I am happy to try to explain the flaws of paladin and explain why I would choose another class over them as long as the conversation is freindly, I agree with him on the above statements where paladins fail at.

197

I do get a little too passionate I think. Either on this thread or another, I had to deal with a rogue telling me that he was at a disadvantage Vs Retribution concerning the mobility discussion for days. I’m sure you know of the goblin I speak. Getting told defensives that get dispelled almost always makes up for not having instant mobility gets me fired up.

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198

Wasn’t he on the same thread with that vulperan saying we are OP because FV had range?

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199

I do agree with a lot of points Greatbrae made, but for me, it’s more about solidifying what that underlining “identity” is for Ret Paladins.

Which is an extremely hard task given their current circumstance of being very easy to play at low ratings, and being able to see good results because of it.

But mainly as I mentioned before, it’s this idea that Ret is stuck somewhere between being a “Melee” and being a “Caster,” that those like “shortcomings” are much more exploitable the higher rating you go.

And this is just where it comes down to the individual and kindof what [you] view Ret Paladins should be.

For Example:

Melee

  • If you do 2s, you probably want that “Basic Melee Toolkit.”

    • An efficient Gap Closer
    • An MS
    • An reliable Snare (something you can spam if needed)
    • As much CC as you possibly can get, mainly being “Physical” so healers can’t dispel it

You want these things because the longer a game goes, which is quite often 5+ min in 2s, the higher Dampening increases, (which is the -Healing Taken Aura arena has implemented), the more impactful these abilities become.

The Value of MS goes up with Dampening because it’s harder to heal, while the benefits of “Off-healing” goes down.

In these games, being the only melee without a MS or Purge, Z-axis Movement, or having a dispelable stun, etc… feels awful.

Caster / Mid-Range

  • I’d argue this is the less desired role most players want because the “Melee Toolkit” is a tried and true method. It’s basic, easy to understand and effective, and I’d argue Ret is still seen as “melee…”

  • But there are players that want to fill in more of that “Support Role” but Ret yet again can feel like they lack these tools

    • Not having a Ranged Kick
    • Not having a Purge
    • Not having a Knockback, Root, Teleport, etc…
    • Not having strong Off-Heals (Healing Hands being nerfed)
    • Not having a strong self defense, so abilities like BoSac get more value (Just zerg the ret)

Now in addition to wanting these type of tools, some Ret Paladins also want Magic Cleanse to come back to Ret, BoP and BoSanc to have a better AoE perk (Spreading the Word PvP Talent), or some other new Blessing to be implemented, WoG and FoL to have PvP Talents, etc…

Mainly, it comes down to wanting more effective off-healing, or ultimately more tanky-ness so that “Zerg the Ret” isn’t an effective strategy-- so it makes your BoSac and Off-healing feel like they have more value.

It’s kindof like that Augmentation Evoker feeling, and wondering how can you discourage players from just zerging a Ret so that BoSac feels awful for them to play into, but rewarding for the Paladin?

This is what made Ret/Warr/Monk so hated in SL. :grin:

Then this is where those questions come into play, and basically where [you] want Ret Paladins to fall and what should they TRADE to get there?

Keeping in mind the homogenization of the rest of the game, giving Paladins a more defensive/caster perk-- while giving Warriors improved Beserker Roar-- is going to make a lot of players hate Ret/Warr/Monk again.

(Why I ask if Arms warrior has encroached too much on the Paladin Design. >.>)

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200

i feel like alot of yall are putting waaay to much emphasis on “theme” when ret has a solid theme and identity. visuals are important when it comes to class identity and going toi much into spec fantasy often leads to poor gameplay interactions. a good exxample of demon hunters old ability “fodder to the flame” which arguably was the most thematic dh ability on paper (you summon a demon to kill it and gain its soul) but ended up being the most disliked dh ability in recent memory.

i feel like yall should separate pvp things and spec fantasy things.

201

What do you mean Arms is all about big hits in melee range only. (With a bleed tacked on so our DPS dont stop if we are forced to move away.)