See, you get it. Im not going to debate you on Golden, though, cuz that’s where I disagree with you. But you’re right, like, how many times does the Horde need to get knocked on it’s butt to get the message that the whole “conqueror” shtick is not going to work out. I’m tired of losing, but at the same time It’s not worth winning if not for the right reasons.
First and foremost, the Horde needs to focus on rebuilding ITSELF, before worrying about the Alliance. The Alliance isn’t a threat to the Horde anymore unless the Horde makes them become a threat. So it has plenty of time to restore its’ millitary and consolidate its’ own power. Bring up a healthy amount of new characters, the Horde needs a fresh coat of paint, it’s too reliant on its’ few remaining WC3 characters. Now is the time to start introducing some characters to eventually take up important roles later in the the story. I’ll admit, Zekhan for all his faults, is exactly the kind of thing the Horde needs, new blood, heroes to carry the Horde banner into the future. Nathanos, love him or hate him, is also a good example of a reinvented character that’s being set up to potentially lead the Forsaken into a new era.
This needs to be said. It’s said, but it’s the truth, either the writing team needs to fix Kosaks blunder or they need to find people who can. I’m telling you, the second Metzen left was the second any ounce of love for the Horde was gone. Metzen wasn’t a perfect writer either, but he knew the Horde and how to write it’s characters properly. I don’t know what happened with Garrosh, but at the very least his descent into villainy at least made sense from a character perspective.
And what she put in BtS that was “all her own” is describing a mind-policing totalitarian society. And I’d say we’ve plenty of in-game examples stating otherwise of independent thought for the masses with the likes of Putress rebelling, the existence/foundation of the RAS, how Sylvie explicitly goes “Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken” in Silverpine questing (which runs counter to Golden’s description in BtS, mind you, where Sylvie apparently blacklists the term ‘Lordaeron’ from the masses), Stillwater rebelling in Hillsbrad, the widow quest from Thunder Bluff->Silverpine, etc. etc.
So while you’re wrong on that front, more importantly, what does suddenly depicting the Forsaken society as a mind-policing add to the greater narrative? How is this a positive for the players/consumers? Is an appeal to mind-policing totalitarian governments a market Blizzard desires to pander to?
It doesn’t, because that’s not what thought-policing is. Atop that, inflicting atrocities on “random farmers” isn’t what I’m bringing up, nor should it matter. The Forsaken serve themselves, that’s been the narrative since Vanilla.
As I’ve stated in my previous post directly above this one, we’ve plenty of quests of notable Forsaken characters and quest givers retaining respective independent thought and motive which is a far cry from Sylvanas enacting a thought-policing decree upon the masses as described in BtS.
Right, but outside of Derek(who was going to be disposed of anyway), there’s no real evidence Sylvanas does that either. Disobeying Sylvanas gets you…imprisoned or executed, as Baine and Zelling shows.
Ok, that’s just not true and you know it! Never have they put control of the entire story in the hands of a single writer. They don’t just let Golden take complete control of the narrative the way you describe in her books. That’s either just total ignorance or spite to think that, but either way it’s completely wrong.
I fail to see how, not many of its’ members have ever displayed any form of individuality. Most of them serve Sylvanas unquestioningly.
Because she was describing the Forsakens’ history to the player, not the character you’re playing, for gameplay and comprehension purposes and she was addressing the whole Kingdom, not just the capital city. She’s never referred to the kingdom as a whole as Undercity.(she’ll proabably find a new name for it if she’s ever goes back)
In his mind, he thought he was furthering the Forsakens’ reasearch and doing Sylvanas’s bidding.
Also, there WAS independant thought in BtS too. The Desolate council were just your everyday Forsaken citizens who just wanted to keep house while Sylvanas was away. Sylvanas, being the paranoid and superstitious being that she is, assumed this as potentially threatening to her power. I don’ see Anything out of character there.
First and foremost, the Horde needs to focus on rebuilding ITSELF, before worrying about the Alliance. The Alliance isn’t a threat to the Horde anymore unless the Horde makes them become a threat. So it has plenty of time to restore its’ millitary and consolidate its’ own power. Bring up a healthy amount of new characters, the Horde needs a fresh coat of paint, it’s too reliant on its’ few remaining WC3 characters. Now is the time to start introducing some characters to eventually take up important roles later in the the story. I’ll admit, Zekhan for all his faults, is exactly the kind of thing the Horde needs, new blood, heroes to carry the Horde banner into the future. Nathanos, love him or hate him, is also a good example of a reinvented character that’s being set up to potentially lead the Forsaken into a new era.
I partly agree with rebuilding the horde but remember the orcs and the horde capital/metropolis is in a desert with few resources, they should move the city to somewhere else. The horde conquering lands is ok as long it makes senses like resources, the lands isn’t being occupied by someone else, it makes senses in both irl and in-game concept.
Now Talking about Zekhan and Nathanos, nah pal sorry but I prefer the old bones if they aren’t some ridiculous new mary sue edgelord or just to futher the plot of someone else(this case I fear Zekhan will be some glorified red shirt so Saurfang can be sad AGAIN), characters like Thalyssra, Talanji, Loti, Raal and Lassan are good examples for what the horde needs.
This needs to be said. It’s said, but it’s the truth, either the writing team needs to fix Kosaks blunder or they need to find people who can. I’m telling you, the second Metzen left was the second any ounce of love for the Horde was gone. Metzen wasn’t a perfect writer either, but he knew the Horde and how to write it’s characters properly. I don’t know what happened with Garrosh, but at the very least his descent into villainy at least made sense from a character perspective.
Less flash and more substance.
Kosak isn’t around and Metzen was the one who planned to make Garrosh a villain so later his mascot Go’el could be warchief again but since he got burn out from the criticism of the forums and the job in general, he gave that role to Vol’jin that is why from 8.1 onward he got lots of buildup when Cataclysm was Thrall wanting to pay a visit to Garrosh after dealing with DW and let’s not forget he helped and was his idea to make orcs villains in WoD, this is why the lore of legion was awesome but clearly some guys in the writing team doesn’t know how to handle powerful characters like KJ, Sargeras and the freaking pantheon, this is why we need some writer isn’t afraid to portray characters powerful like dbz but in a coherent way.
Tl.dr: Horde needs to keep their conquering theme but not doing it in the most retarded way to annoy many people and we need more classical characters instead of Nathanos the [Edited by Blizzard] of Sylvanas and edgelord sucking screen time(Rokhan doesn’t do much compared to Nathanos and he is a freaking troll in Zuldazar) or plot device characters
Forum Mod Edit: This post has been edited by a moderator due to masked language as it is in violation of the Code of Conduct.
That I disagree. Logically, living in a desert doesn’t make any sense, however at this point, I see it more as a symbol that shows that the Horde are a hardy, adaptable, people who can survive anything the world throws at them. And honestly, I really can’t see the Horde living anywhere else that fits their thematic as the tough bunch of survivalists.
Problem is, we don’t got any old bones, majority of them got killed off. It’s Really only Sylvanas and Thrall that are left, one who’s about to knocked off her pedestal and one who’s essentially just afk.
Mmm Thalysra seems good enough, Talanji has a lot more to prove imo, the rest are mostly side-characters that I’m sure we’ll see enough of but aren’t going to be pushing the narrative anytime soon. I’m talking some new lead characters, similar in the way that Nazgrim or Zaela grew to fill bigger shoes over 1+ expansions.
I’ve been saying this for years, but with Sadfang being sad, I can’t think of a better time to re-introduce Thura into the greater narrative. She wields one of the most powerful weapons on Azeroth, capable of wounding the mighty Sargeras, she’s more than capable of carrying the Saurfang legacy into the future. Jorin Deadeye is another character I have been preaching for, he the son of the legendary Kilrogg, yet he has languished in irrelevancy for years, it’s time to bring the rest of the MU Mag’har to Azeroth. In Northrend we have Roanuak as well as his son Banthok of the Icemist Taunka, they’re one of the few factions that we got to witness officially joining the Horde, yet we have never called upon them for aid. Perhaps we could sail their forces down here to refill some of our ranks.
There are plenty of Horde-aligned characters out in the world that the writers refuse to ustilize, and it’s a shame, because these characters could be exactly what we need to move forward as a faction.
Like I said, Metzen wasn’t perfect, but he at least villainized Garrosh in a way that made sense for the character, he didn’t randomly just pull a 180 villain on us. That possibility was set with events like the death of Cairne and conflict with Vol’jin, it wasn’t out of the cold blue like what they’e been doing with Sylvanas.
Legion to me was just a wasted opportunity to give us a truly fearsome bad guy, but was botched by crappy pacing and lack of character focus. Velen, Illidan, Jaina, Thrall, Vol’jin, Tyrande, and Malf should have been the focus of Legion. This should have been a 3rd war reunion between old allies who had once banded together to defeat Archimonde during the second invasion. Instead it’s a crappy AvH subplot, Illidan hero worship, and incredibly short-lived threats who weren’ allowed more than a raid fight’s worth of screen time. Literally!
-We see Gul’dan on BS one minute and the next we’re killing him at NH
-We don’t see KJ AT ALL for the whole first half unless you’re a DH and the next we’re giving him his final death in ToS
-Then all of a sudden we teleport to Argus, completely body the Legion on their own homeworld with only a small army of Draenei led by Turalyon, and pretty much instantly defeat them at the very heart of their command
Like, there was ZERO buildup to either Gul’dan or KJ and Argus should have been at LEAST two patches in and of itself. It should have been a long, brutal, hard fought campaign across the Legions’ homeworld facing some of the most powerful warriors the Legion had to offer as well as some familiar faces. Legion just felt incredibly rushed with a plot fueled by ex-machina after ex-machina, with very little character development.
The Horde can be conquerors, just not the stupid way that’s exuded by Sylvanas and her annoying band of fanatics. If the Horde can have peace, then let there be peace. If the Horde needs to conquer to secure peace, then let it conquer.
To be fair, when Saurfang made those comments to Garrosh, Saurfang was quite certain that he wouldn’t be one of those bloodthirsty warmongers. He was wrong. He faired no better than any of the previous orc leaders (aside from Thrall) when it came time to turn his back on needless bloodshed and it directly resulted in a genocide comparable to the one the Orcs committed on the Dreanei in Outland.
This is a massive and monumental personal failure that simply isn’t shrugged off. Him having his moment of personal crisis isn’t the main issue with this. The timing (or lack of timing) is the issue. There should have been more to his story before the first patch, and even more in the first patch aside from a small questline.
No I don’t know it. Feel free to disprove me with evidence. I’m basing my assumptions off William King’s blog regarding his writing of the Illidan novel where he states he had free reign for a good majority of it and Blizzard only directed him to hit key plot points; the rest he was free to fill out how he pleased. Now imagine what sort of freedom that entails for an actual Blizzard employee which Golden now is atop how BtS was advertised as her first book as an official Blizzard emplyoee.
The rebellion of Putress and autonomy to experiment? Sylvanas isn’t an Apothecary, the Apothecaries do the alchemy. Their alchemy is unrestricted. Alchemy, in Warcraft, implies a great deal of background knowledge regarding fauna and flora.
And? The PC for Tirisfal/Silverpine is tailored to a Forsaken stand-in which is why said zones deal exclusively with Forsaken narrative. And even then, why would she address her nation by the old name if she sought to be using a new one? During that entire speech the term ‘Undercity’ wasn’t mentioned once. In BtS Golden makes it a point that “Lordaeron is no more” and “there is only Undercity”’; runs kinda counter to Sylvie’s speech that we’re talking about here.
You need to replay Hillsbrad. Stillwater rebelled against Sylvanas and went to conduct his own research to prolong the Forsaken without the val’kyr powers (which he opposed), he was then killed off by the PC and friends for said rebellion.
As for your mention of BtS, no duh? My point is independent thought/autonomy was a thing Sylvie tolerated with the Forsaken for a good while. You can’t call Sylvanas thought-policing paranoid when we had the likes of Putress and Stillwater rebel under her. You can’t call her “Undercity-Only”-though policing either if you do a simple playthrough of Forsaken questing where the NPCs/questgivers are very much still their own characters.
Just the actual direction he was running to. He was in the east end of the Swamp of Sorrows and headed west, and there’s nothing else that way except the Blasted Lands because if he went into Duskwood he’d just end up right back where he started in Stormiwnd.
I guess I should be thankful that the developers only care about the Horde. Otherwise Alliance leaders might be getting killed off left and right to put someone else’s fave in charge.