Original Ragnaros world first kill was 5 months after release

[Vlorg-thalnos]

people would have scoffed at a Warrior going DPS in Molten Core using a Thrash Blade MH and Mirah’s Song OH, and advocated kicking them out of the raid

No, actually people making those choices were allowed in raids as long as they could hold their own. There was plenty of measuring and evaluating different builds and specs, most of what people are coming up with these days has already been tried and tested 15 years ago. Nothing magical has occurred over the last 15 years.

like FR gear on everyone for a fight where nobody but the tank itself should recieve any significant amount of fire damage?

Or the OP’s video, showing a rogue spamming feint, never using slice N dice, in FR gear, being no.2 DPS in his guild?

how much more proof do you need ? people were awful in 2004.

[Katrynia-stormrage]

who use exploits to do massive dps

What exploits are being used? Seriously what the hell are you talking about?

Also here’s a random log of a guild wiping on Rag with people doing very low DPS across the board, terrible use of buffs, and bad gear choices and their LOWEST DPS Mage, with all the downtime of Sons included, did 208 DPS.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bXdfvkrKmMwnthqQ#fight=203&type=summary

HAHAHAHA

This is a 1.12 parce you mong.

The video above is 1.4 Good God.

[Imonalott-kelthuzad]

People didnt know what raids where back then or how boss mechanics work. I remember people having troubles beating Super Mario 3 as the last world is very hard. Fast Forward to 2019, Kids farm fortnite where kids can do that building mechanic so fast that a 16 year old kid wins 3 million dollars in prizes.

There’s no “my experience” there, or “me and my friends”

Your intial argument is that the current generation of video game players is superior to the older generations. Your comparison is that Fornight players are amazing while older players had struggles with Super Mario 3.

I am arguing the opposite: the older generation are superior video game players who handle challenges better than the current generation who want everything to be easy mode for them.

All of which are my experiences. Since the line before explained how I ran to Onyxia without being attuned and that half the raid didnt know that was a thing. and me saying “I REMEMBER people having troubles” again that is my experience. and the 2019 kids can do building mechanics so you can argue they suck at fornite? I wouldnt know since I dont play it…but If I dont play it I might be wrong bc I do play it bc its popular bc facts…I dont know how this argument about my personal experience isnt true…

[Yloh-kromcrush]

Or the OP’s video, showing a rogue spamming feint, never using slice N dice, in FR gear, being no.2 DPS in his guild?

was it because the tanks were bad and had to build threat after they were knocked away? Do we have a recording where he doesn’t use feint? Is he simply using it because it’s an ability and you think he’s an idiot right?

Wait, the mages were bad. Because they weren’t topping meters.

[Hidalin-pagle]

You’ll see similar variations, trust me.

I believe the argument being made is that even if the bosses are the same, the players themselves are stronger, which is why it’s easier.

Honestly, before classic was released, I watched A LOT of guides. They all pretty much said that Classic was very casual friendly and the challenge was getting a group, but easy once there. I didn’t expect it to be easy, but it’s consistent with what we are seeing.

They also all say that Naxx will be harder and isn’t casual friendly - we’'ll see.

[Plaguelust-malganis]

A lot of what you’re saying is objectively false but you’re convinced you’re right in it. I’m literally pointing out how this client statistically has a numbers advantage to these fights and you wanna go “lol bad rogue”.

I post up how the gear itself hasn’t changed an iota for most of these classes and how there is no “numbers advantage” in many cases and I also already critiqued the Rogue in that video. He’s spamming FEINT for crying out loud and not even using Slice and Dice! He’s the very definition of a bad Rogue.

this rogue has LESS UPTIME because the boss he’s fighting isn’t nerfed

This Rogue never came off the boss… WTF are you talking about?

Priests don’t have mana regen talents at this stage of the game. Druids had to spec into innervate.

None of that matters when no one is using Innervates and fights are short. Also people aren’t spamming uselessly and the raid isn’t taking avoidable damage.

Mages didn’t have Winters Chill.

5% Frost Crit chance has nothing to do with the Warrior/Rogue domination of MC.

Your DPS stats you pointed out in the last post are people parcing on a 1.12 client and posting it on WarcraftLogs. Not a 1.4.

And? You can’t just point vaguely at Patch numbers and say “See! Different!!” unless you really want to explain how and why losing Throwing Specialization put Combat Rogues on the map to do 600+ DPS.

You are numerically and objectively wrong and inaccurate. Either way, that’s the end of what I have to say about it. Can lead a horse to water etc.

Sure thing. You have generalizations, that’s all, and they’re incorrect.

Hey! Look there’s other people doing end game bosses that I’m not doing they’re so bad! histerical laugh

Hysterical.

Also you’re wonderfully missing my point: they were playing suboptimally and still did over 200 DPS with downtime of not being able to hit anything at all.

This is a 1.12 parce you mong.

Glad you can read, doesn’t matter to the greater point unless you want to post more than vague generalizations.

[Fearoftdark-herod]

This is a 1.12 parce you mong.

The video above is 1.4 Good God.

He acts like 1.12 parses with not only super buffed talents and people farming raids 24/7 means a thing

[Hidalin-pagle]

We are kinda arguing different things at this point tbh.

I also actually do have to leave.

[Desarian-aggramar]

see people like you keep bring up the patch that we are on so i’m just gonna drop this little bomb. Nostalrius you know the big bad free to play wow private server? yea they launched on 1.12 … its funny how people like to forget that little fact.

[Vlorg-thalnos]

your entire argument is subjective to what difficulty is. Just because you where “Good” at games as a kid doesnt mean that was the norm. there are way more people playing games today then when Super Mario 3 came out. Also the movie The Wizard was terrible and most people I knew never watched it. So your saying the mass use of the internet and adding mechanics, more buttons on controllers, size of games, etc have no impact on games whatsoever? weird how that works maybe I was afk the last 20 years and we still playing games with a single joystick and 1 button?

How is it subjective when I am giving you concrete examples of the video game industry past and present? Discussing why there has a been a current fad for more difficult games, especially among older players.

You are being subjective when you say things like:

your entire argument is subjective to what difficulty is. Also the movie The Wizard was terrible and most people I knew never watched it.

How about some actual facts? Like the fact it debued at #5 and was considered a commercial success by the industry. Like actually read some articles discussing these things rather than just giving me your personal anecdotes.

I can do the opposite: I watched it, and so did all my friends, so I’m right.

Instead, I am referring to actual articles that discuss the success of the film and it’s impact, as well as commonly known facts about the video game industry. If you are too lazy to google stuff, that’s on you.

Next you will be telling me that no one bought or read Nintendo Power.

So your saying the mass use of the internet and adding mechanics, more buttons on controllers, size of games, etc have no impact on games whatsoever? weird how that works maybe I was afk the last 20 years and we still playing games with a single joystick and 1 button?

The games have become shorter and the controls have become simpler.

That was the whole point of the Wii Sucess: They catered games toward a casual audience. Fornight is geared toward a casual audience.

Mechanics also became easier, such as an increased amount of save points, health regen items, or having you respawn after death right after the boss dies. Bioshock is good example of a game that does this, but not others. Even Retail WoW is an example of this as they have worked to simply rotations, classes, and what needs to be done, all in the name of convenience.

You then have games like Sekiro that provide a real challenge and the biggest request being made by the new generation of players is an EASY MODE. People are still requesting easy modes for cuphead and darksouls as well.

The current generation of players is inferior to the previous generation and hides from challenge.

If you want to bring it back to Vanilla, the current generation even shows it here.

As people have said, people used to go to dungeons when as soon as they could, didn’t have the huge fear of wipes that exists today, and accepted having long hours in a dungeon or raid. In contrast, the current generation of players is scared to enter something like deamines unless they are level 20s because the thought of actually wiping and having some difficulty is the last thing they want.

Instead, the current generation of players would rather brain-dead AOE farm in a raid group until 60 because it is fast and provides virtually no challenge.

I have given you now plenty of non-subjective examples now demonstrating to you that the older generation of players not only were able to handle difficult games, they are able to handle difficulty better than the current generation.

easy.

the playerbase expanded.

back in the 1990’s or w/e the glory day of megaman were, only a few nerds were playing game, keeping to themselve, pouring untold hours into that game because as kids, we could only afford few of them.

now we have tons of people with tons of game and while the dark soul / seikiro and co. crew is still there enjoying their hard game, you have a new, very vocal group of casual gamer who don’t want to treat it like a sport, but just something to have fun with for an hour.

Isn’t this common knowledge?

[Plaguelust-malganis]

people farming raids 24/7

The top Warrior parses aren’t using any raid drops you spoon.

[Imonalott-kelthuzad]

My point is your argument has nothing to do with my initial story. you took it as personal attack on some weird facts and my point stands people I knew thought games where hard as they were new. Because some movie was popular meant nothing to me personally but I guess im wrong I do love it bc I watched it but I dont think I ever did? For some reason thats a big point. hope to see you on the battlefield and dont let people tell you Rets cant have Rag hammer I want more Pals.

[Jojenpaste-mankrik]

They also all say that Naxx will be harder and isn’t casual friendly - we’'ll see.

The usual private server guilds will knock it out within 5-6 hours of it opening, if not sooner.

Actual casual guilds will be able to do it, but it will take them a little time.

[Vlorg-thalnos]

And most classic players avoid raids, hell most people aren’t even 40 yet.

But you can’t just dismiss mythic raiding, that is a major reason people stay playing retail.

When the overwhelming majority of players don’t do mythic raiding, I think you kinda can. It’s around 10% of the playerbase if you assume only 1 million people play retail. If you think there are more than a million retail players, then the amount do mythic raiding is even lower than 10%.

It’s hard to say that most people are playing retail due to mythic when it’s less than 10%.

there’s wowprogress listing thousandS of guild progressing in mythic.

but if you really want, heroic-mode is also harder than anything classic has to offer.

and i’d even say normal-mode is about on-par with naxx…more mechanic, but less gear check.

[Katrynia-stormrage]

This is a 1.12 parce you mong.

The video above is 1.4 Good God.

He acts like 1.12 parses with not only super buffed talents and people farming raids 24/7 means a thing

Everyday I get more sad that Blizz didn’t release an actual legit patch progression server with crap like Warriors having a talent that increased Spirit regen and no Shield Slam so people can play it as it actually was. This dude’s just a frigging idiot who’s literally unaware non 1.12 talent trees existed and yeah, people killed bosses with those talents.

[Imonalott-kelthuzad]

That isnt really my argument. we can look at sales numbers for how many people play games but you cannot really get 100% numbers since arcades where a big thing and you can own 1 console and have 10 kids. My argument was when I played wow it felt new and alot of people I knew didnt know what raiding was and had to learn it while today in Classic alot more people went into the game knowing raiding and what to do to beat the bosses, compared to when I played I didnt even know Rag existed till someone told me and I learned it in game quests lol.

[Desarian-aggramar]

the private servers were also running patch 1.12 to don’t forgot that.

[Raise-fairbanks]

@Heavyweight-proudmoore

The game was released in November 2004, and the first kill of Ragnaros was in April of 2005. Here’s a link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=153&v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg

This is the Ragnaros struggle that i remember back in the day.

These guys all had full enchants and lots of tier 1 and barely managed this kill. Note the rogue swapping a fire resist set of gear during adds. I’m sure this guild had been working on Ragnaros for months, acquiring the necessary gear upgrades until they could manage it.

I was hoping that classic would provide the same challenge, but for guilds to be able to kill Ragnaros in 5 days after release demonstrates that classic is very, very different than vanilla.

First of all, you’re 110.

Second:

You mean to tell me, that after over 15 years of private servers, doing Mythic+ raids and having all the tactics laid out on a million websites…

…things in a 15 year old version of WoW…

…would be easier?

WHAT?!

[Plaguelust-malganis]

Actual casual guilds will be able to do it, but it will take them a little time.

Especially since people are aware of attunements and farming Argent Dawn rep really isn’t that hard. With Raiding a lot more casual friendly thanks to years of realizing logistics don’t equate to difficult play, people will handily clear the easy bosses of Naxx no problem.

With the sort of gear we’ll have though, it’ll be interesting if ignoring Frost Resistance is an option for Sapphiron or not. AoE healing isn’t really very strong AFAIK but with enough killer DPS, it may not matter.

[Vlorg-thalnos]

TL;DR - Yes. This version of Rag that Ascent is fighting in this video is harder than what we have available right now in Classic HOWEVER please do not use Apes as a metric to measure the average player against.

can I use the long list of sub 3-min rag kill recorded on warcraftlog then?