LOL!
I LAUGH AT YOU because even at level 60, I CAN UNLOCK WRG and use it in Retail. Clueless?
I mean you are clueless on how hunter plays just because you have a lv60 character means nothing just like how you played sv in 9.2.5 but were completely clueless about that too. You’re also missing 10 talent points and are unable to do raid or m+ on it so I’m curious as to what you actually do, world content I guess? You have no insight into anything hunter related and just try to pawn off opinions as fact.
The only difference is that I would gather, what? 5 more points in the spec tree? You’re talking about a 5-point difference between 60 and 70 and tier set bonuses, which I already read up about that. There isn’t much more to figure out after 60.
And yes, I’m an open-worlder, both WPvE and WPvP(what little there is).
It’s funny how my attitude reflects the same about so many of you people. None of you are convincing me that I’m wrong and I don’t know what I’m talking about. It’s certainly not pushing me to buy an xpac right now and see for myself, because of the elephant in the room being WPvP and all.
I’m not going to shell out the money to impress some nobodies here on the forums. Again, I’ve done a lot more in this class than a lot of them. So I’m not falling for that trap.
what have you done?
“Name it.”
thats not an answer lol. Are you an ex dev, theorycrafter what?
Well, to make this simpler, I have over 200 days played in the class. I have 281 days played as a Warlock. So not as much as I’ve played a Warlock lifetime, but still a chonky amount.
Sure but that doesn’t actually mean anything in terms of what we were discussing just that you have a lot of time played. Doesn’t mean you have any insight or actually know anything and you’ve spouted a lot of wrong information in our discussion which says it all really. Clearly you have an idea of what you want from a sv spec and keep doing you. In terms of pretending to have actual knowledge of the game its ok to be out of the loop and trying to circumvent that by presenting opinion as fact is just silly. I think at this point its just going in circles/talking to a brick wall. Should probably be a bit more open to listening to others who have their finger on the pulse more these days food for thought.
I find it interesting how you argue that a modern version of RSV must come with significant changes to it’s core identity and fantasy, all because of your grudge against the fact that it was fully mobile and ranged.
Even if the part about mobility was true(it’s not, it’s a requirement in your head only), it wouldn’t require any changes to the core identity/fantasy at all, and still only minor changes to the design of the core gameplay. RSV in wotlk has movement restrictions, and the core fantasy and identity is the same as it was in WoD.
Again, I agree, the devs typically haven’t created a lot of ranged specs without movement restrictions, and in some cases, they’ve gone back on attempts at making certain specs more mobile, and for some, they haven’t(compared to the earlier days, ranged specs are generally more mobile, have fewer restrictions than they used to).
Still, the notion that you can’t have another ranged spec without movement restrictions simply isn’t true. It’s all about the design, what they do to make up for the fact of how said new spec lacks said restrictions.
…because that’s how they sought to focus the core design and their approach to the fantasy?
MM was/is the spec which has always had a focus on the physical nature of the impact of shots, the impact of the shot is what’s intended to cause damage to the target. Whether it’s about the point of impact in terms of aim/accuracy, or force of impact, or about hitting a point with the purpose of making the target bleed. Or simply about hitting the target many times in a short timeframe.
For RSV, yes, the shots hit the targets as well, but the focus there was mainly on what the enhancing effects did to the target, indirectly from the actual impact of the projectile.
Overlaps/class fantasy follows below:
The same way as it’s apparently okay for MSV to, like BM, have a major part of its core design focusing on interactions with the pet, on pet-based gameplay.
I would argue that their approach to pet-based gameplay should be developed further apart from BM, in terms of certain abilities, but that’s another topic.
My point is that some overlaps are okay between specs, as their all adhering to a common class fantasy, or a part thereof. My point here is also that, if it’s okay for MSV to both copy, and take, several signature abilities and effects from BM as part of its core fantasy, why was it wrong for RSV to exist alongside MM, despite how they did in fact NOT share any signature abilities or effects at all?
TL;DR - The idea that some elements of augmenting effects and shots exist outside of a modern RSV, as part of another spec, or the base class, is okay. Again, it’s a part of a common class fantasy. But even though it does, RSV would be the spec to actually explore that fantasy/concept in-depth.
It’s not about that. It’s about what the intended focus/design fantasy was set for each spec. It’s about which parts each spec was primarily focused on.
We all know their reasoning on this. How they’re essentially saying that we can’t have two specs focusing on the use of a ranged weapon because there’s no difference between 1 ranged shot and another.
Funny logic there really. That must also mean that we can’t have more than one ranged spec focusing on casting spells, it’s all just spells/magic after all…
Note that a part of their reasoning was also about how they thought it lacked a core fantasy and niche. So, it wasn’t a spec primarily focusing on DoTs and on being a munitions expert and trapper? Correct me if I’m wrong here but, this is not what the focus was for either BM or MM at the time, was it?
So I guess RSV did in fact have a core fantasy and niche of its own…
Because it’s a moot point? My point there wasn’t formed with the basis of how MM is “the only weapons expert there is”. My point there was how MMs fantasy is on being proficient at handling their ranged weapon, again, talking better aim/accuracy than for example BM(or RSV would), what to do to be able to hit their mark from further away, etc. Etc. That’s all, it had nothing to do with the fact of whether other classes/specs have a fantasy that focuses on being proficient at handling their weapon(s) of choice or not.
Yes, and?
MMs fantasy is to be proficient(an expert)at handling a ranged weapon, above anything else. Is there another spec in the game with this same fantasy? Is that the case with BM? Outlaw? Demo? Arcane? Feral?
Yes, but this discussion is taking place on this forum. And, unless you can show me a place where the majority of these SV discussions taking place are about the similarities in the animations/aesthetics between the specs, there isn’t really a point to your argument.
I know I can pick it back up and I can dominate in WPvP, snaps just like that. I know I can do it. But how many commentating Hunters like me have been in the class for so long? My advice is: I would not take advice from those who are just brand new, ESPECIALLY if their time played isn’t even close to 100 days. *There’s enough FOTMers and alters that think they have it all figured out. I wasn’t vocal until BFA, when by that point I already had one and a half xpac cycles in.
That’s why I also feel I’m going in circles and talking to brick walls with “Hunters” who haven’t even scratched the surface of the class yet. I’m not trying to be rude about that since we all started somewhen, but if your total time played in a class is leagues part, I would recommend listening first before talking. Food for thought about respecting seniority.
So if anything substantial, there’s a lack of respect for pre-Leg Hunters apparently. I won’t put up with it; get to grinding in some venue before you have something to share/teach others.
Yeah you’ve lost me here I’m afraid I just completely disagree and don’t think we’ll get anywhere in a discussion. Hope DF maybe entices you in 10.2 its pretty fun imo despite the current state of hunter.
I don’t know what I’ll do, because Retail WPvP was literally my livelihood. “The Hunter is nothing without the Hunt,” so I’m already bitter because I am nothing. Whether it’s the social contract, sharding, xfaction, and the rest of Hello Kitty Island Adventure, I can’t be a Hunter. SW City as an example is a ghost town, but not in the Classic PvP server I’m in. And speaking of Classic, I’m going to be completely new because I never played a Hunter before Cata until now and never played one at max level in Cata.
So I can put the shoe on the other foot: I need to learn how the PvP masters geared up, talented up, and so on, from those who were there and did it. Will I find such here in this class forum? If I were to make a thread asking for PvP advice for my Classic Cata Hunter, who will instruct me and how will I listen? See? But chances are, I dunno if that’ll happen. Not many of us old codgers around, I guess…but hey, I’m back to being a noob there. I just dinged 60 today with a few days played, and I know that there’s much more to learn in Classic Hunter.
It was a lot easier to take engagement in Retail Hunter when I had something I wanted to do. But I didn’t want to talk about that here. I just want to show solidarity and try to encourage non-MSV Hunters to keep moving on in their venue of choice, as someone who indeed has over 200 days played. That’s not the most anyone has played in anything by far but it’s an attention-getter. That was a lot of gankage with some M+ on the side.
i know you said that since MSV players didn’t accept your decree of what’s best for the spec, you’re not going to talk to us… but i do want to point out that you’ve got a major double standard going here. you’re saying that you started talking about hunter after you’d played it for three years. anyone who started playing hunter in legion has been playing it for five to seven years now.
you only have a year or two over anyone who started playing hunter in legion. this seniority thing is very much something you’ve constructed.
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there’s no grudge at all, I just don’t think the developers want more fully ranged fully mobile DPS because that removes the one downside ranged DPS has. it’s interesting that you choose to words like grudge here, you seem to be trying to find some weird negativity that isnt there
no? there’s a reason every ranged dps (besides BM) doesn’t have full mobility lol. that is most certainly not in my head 
and what restrictions do you think the RSV player base would be happy with? it surely wouldn’t be low damage to compensate, and if 2 of 3 hunter specs are low damage mobile rdps that wouldn’t be very good from a design pov
the alternative is your hypothetical RSV would have cast times which would immediately turn off a huge portion of the mop-wod RSV fans
So if they bring wotlk SV forward, there would be two game versions with the same RSV playable in both retail and classic. sounds kind of silly to me most people.
you’re reaching so hard right now bud. “Well no the fantasy here is different because it’s not the arrow hitting the target but what the arrow hits the target with. please ignore than MM also has poison arrows, and arcane arrows, and magic wind arrows, and black magic arrows”
several? what several abilities do they have stolen from BM as core fantasy? kill command is the same in name only. what other abilities are there? note: I would be fine with KC name changing because it’s an entirely different ability from BM’s version
are you talking about SV here or the made up future RSV? because current SV has a very different feel for pet based gameplay when it compares to BM
remember how I brought that up earlier? you can look at a frost mage a fire mage and an arcane mage casting spells and they’re all very different visually from an immediate glance. you look at a RSV and an MM hunter and visually they’re doing the exact same thing
but this isn’t a special fantasy because every class is proficient with their weapon. if it is, then clearly SV is the most weapons proficient out of all the hunter specs as they use the most amount of different weapons proficiently (melee weapons, side arms, bombs, even better use out of bolas than BM/MM)
BM uses their weapon very proficiently 
Pretty epic argument thread y’all got going on here 
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i totally agree buff survival
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This, right here.
Because that’s how they chose to design those specs. Nothing stops them from creating another spec without movement restrictions, but instead is somewhat lacking in other areas.
You will have to ask them.
As for how you could balance the perk of lacking movement restrictions, despite how in certain areas of the game, it’s not much of a perk at all(relative to the performance of other specs which do have movement restrictions), since the main focus of a modern RSV would be on DoTs, as opposed to hard-hitting, front-loaded dmg attacks, you’d keep the burst potential of this supposed spec lower than certain other specs.
In addition to that, compared to most other ranged specs which have more movement restrictions to them, they don’t have to deal with the idea of having their attacks thwarted by getting disarmed, nor do most of them have to rely on pets for utility and/or damage. This part is generally aimed more towards PvP, rather than PvE, but parts of it apply to both/all areas.
I know you like to argue how big of an advantage it is to have zero movement restrictions, even in PvE but, for most encounters, it isn’t a massive advantage. And, as history shows, even in fights with a lot of movement, hunters usually aren’t the top performers. And for most, we’re not chosen specifically because of our lack of movement restrictions.
That wasn’t my argument. You conveniently ignore what I’ve actually mentioned in terms of a fully realised modern RSV, whenever it suits your argument.
Not at all.
The fact that MM, and historically, BM as well, have had some influence of enhancements to their shots, that in no way removes the option to have a spec which is actually dedicated to that fantasy/theme. You yourself have repeatedly brought up the argument of “class fantasy”. And about commonly shared elements between specs to adhere to said fantasy. Just because 1 spec has a select few talents which adhere to a certain fantasy, that doesn’t mean that 1 spec can truly focus on exploring said fantasy.
Kill Command, Spirit Bond, Coordinated Assault(before the SL rework, it was basically just Bestial Wrath with a different name).
Not to mention how the entire general theme of the “beast companion guy(as described by blizzard)” is literally how they marketed BM all throughout history, right until the SV rework that is. If you read their thoughts on this in the gameaxis interview from 2017, the way they talk, it’s like they didn’t even recognize BM as an option for that anymore.
Well, current MM has animations of extended hard-casting, it also has rapid fire, effectively focused “machine gun”-style shooting, as well as things like Volley, a literal rain of arrows.
Meanwhile, my proposed concept for a modern RSV would include animations like explosions(from ranged shots), an option for a fire-themed trap with the ability to trigger an inferno to burn approaching enemies, options to adhere to the Dark Ranger fantasy of summoning undead minions(since, apparently, blizz think that fantasy should be a part of our class, with the recently added questline etc.), and dedicated electric themed attacks/shots.
With a modern persperctive, with the above in mind, I’d argue that it wouldn’t be too hard to distinguish between a MM hunter and a RSV hunter. Certainly not harder than it is to distinguish between the Rogue specs animations, mid-combat, as an example.
You really are going out of your way to ignore the point of what I’m saying…
The fantasy OF MM is to be proficient/an expert at handling a RANGED weapon, literally no other spec in the game has that same fantasy. Whether other specs are experts at their weapons of choice, or whether specs like current SV is more proficient in a larger variety of weapon types than X or Y spec, is completely irrelevant to my point.
Funny guy…
By all means, tell me how much of BM’s core theme and talent compilation is about abilities and effects themed around the idea of being an expert at handling the weapon itself.
Example 1: Barbed Shot
It’s a ranged special attack, but it’s not themed around an increased expertise in weapon handling, but rather on how your pet smells blood and goes into a frenzy.
Example 2: Cobra Shot
A shot that causes some damage and lowers the cooldown of Kill Command. Nothing particularly focused on being an expert on the use of the weapon…
Example 3: Multi-Shot
Is still designed as a class-wide(for ranged specs) ability, so not exclusive to BM. The description of how it’s supposed to work is also fairly vague. “Fire several missiles…”, doesn’t say much. Besides, consider the damage it deals, and the fact that it has, since the introduction of core specs and core fantasies, it has always served as a trigger for other, spec-specific elements.
What else?
What are you trying to say here? Surely you aren’t being mean to someone online because you don’t agree with them?
Okay, but what other areas would it lack in? Sacrificing damage for movement would make RSV fans upset that they have their spec but it’s too low to bring.
so extremely similar, if not identical, to bm? steady and predictable damage with minimal burst or variance? sounds like a great class where 2 of the 3 specs are more steady oriented fully mobile ranged damage dealers, not redundant at all
not generally, entirely. there are no pve encounters that uniquely disarm players and/or target pets. none of these factors apply to pve.
it’s still a huge advantage lol. when ranged is better than melee due to uptime, target switching, and more area to spread/soak/deal with mechanics, having freedom of movement on top of that is a huge advantage.
what is your argument then?
well, except for the fact that CA and BW were entirely different, with entirely different effects, entirely different cooldown periods, different names, and different icons then yeah they are the same thing, just like how MM stole aimed shot from warlocks. if you think about it, it’s super similar to chaos bolt for the same reasons CA and BW are the same
an entirely different ability with entirely different functions. please look at what the abilities do before you make such silly claims
the two specs have far different fantasies when it comes to animal compansionship. besides, hunter is a pet class, most of the specs should have pet functionality
I wonder, how many years will it ttake for you to say SV has historically been melee? will it be next year? the year after? or does precedent only matter to you when it agrees with what you feel?
moving on, of course it doesn’t remove the option to have a spec which dedicates to that, but at this point it would be like making a barrier and blink focused mage spec. yes, all 3 specs can do it, but why not focus an entire identity on something all 3 specs do?
especially with the interview given just today where ion said they don’t want to drastically rework any existing specs SV is not going to be moved from a melee pet user to a ranged dot user. sorry champ, hopefully the next class is more your speed
you’re not understanding me, I’m sorry for the miscommunication. the auto shots and “Casting” animation for channeled/casted bow/gun/xbow abilities have been untouched since day 1 and they need a pass. barbed shot is the same animation as aimed shot which is the same as arcane shot. they need to be modernized
well, all 3 rogue specs have very different animations currently so idk about this one
not going to respond to your fan made rsv cause it’s not relevant + dps traps are bad + it’s a mess of 5 different themes
you’re doing the same exact thing lol. being proficient in a weapon is not unique to mm. that would be like saying “well sub is the ONLY master of daggers in the game” “havoc is the ONLY master of glaives in the game” etc. it’s reaching, vague, and you’re using it to pad and try to refine MM’s current design mess
It’s a fair point, but I was around back then. I watched Danaik’s Tripple D’s back in the Wrath Era, so I was enamored of the power of RSV.
Legion changed everything. Even I couldn’t main Warlocks anymore because it got so stupid easy. I continued on as Marks and got City Attacker in a timeframe of two years. I don’t remember being on the forums a whole lot. I might have said that SV was a terribad melee but I did give it a chance. I dabbled in it, but I gave it up because important abilities like Flanking Strike and FotE were unforgiving on positioning. A mobile melee can boot-scoot out of the way. Since Fury required 5 stacks of Mongoose to do really well, it was the most predictable power attack to avoid.
I heard it said that MSV could use range and mobility as defensives? Well guess what? That means every other melee that is superior in mobility can do the same thing right back to MSV. Even Paladin can just Steed up on out of there. I think Flanking Strike early on couldn’t work if you and your pet cannot reach the target at range or something. In its earlier versions, I don’t think it was even a gapcloser either at the first; you just had to be in range on your own with your pet or it didn’t work.
But given that Leg’s PvP meta was a very fast one(quite like that of SL), I personally decided that MSV was too slow. Talking about my own ganking gig, I needed something that can global something quickly. Back in Leg, SV cannot waste a target in 5-10 sec, but MM could. So I went with MM because by virtue of getting cleaner ganks. MM also didn’t need a pet, which is less management work when you’re in the city…
So ever since then, Blizzard took pity upon MSV in a roundabout way and started expanding range capability. In BFA, even I was happy to see KC have a range of 40 yards. Because in Leg, practically every melee attack had a 5 yard range. 5 yards was almost all you got. I appreciated them trying to appeal to the Reach property of weapons from D&D, but they had to scrap it. Just like they also scrapped the Marked Shots/Vuln mechanic for MM which was indeed Gucci.
These facts are stubborn things indeed. Blizzard had to act to improve damage uptimes…
The first thing I said publicly(and probably within Leg’s timeframe) was that SV wasn’t even a good melee, which then leads on that it should BE a good melee if it’s going to STAY as one. So I’m already tired and exhausted of hearing it’s already a full melee and it’s already “good”. I saw that the trends since BFA were pushing more towards Ranged, which had stoked my curiosity to see if Blizzard was going to give SV yet another renaissance. Because the weird gene-splicing experiment of RSV into MM didn’t really work either. Ever since Leg, Marks has always been Marks. There was nothing RSV about it. And by this, I mean Black Arrows, Explosive Shots, T.N.T., L&L, and how your rotation is this.
Long story short about that: you can’t do Black Arrows and Explosive Shots in ANY spec since Leg like you used to before Leg. So when some people are upset that RSV is gone, that’s literally it: it IS gone. You can’t replicate this in MARKSMANSHIP now!
So this turned out to be a neat history lecture. The thing is, looking forward, I was willing to surrender SV completely to the MSVs. The conflict is that they act like most things are fine; no, they’re not fine. They want to act like they know better than me; no, they do not. They want to ignore and revise spec history like what I just gave; I won’t allow that. Because I dabbled in Leg SV and it sucked critically to where MORE RANGE needed to be given to improve DPS uptimes. You at least want to make sure you get your car working at 100% capability before tweaking and tuning it to improve it beyond 100%.
TL;DR: I think anyone would be upset if they tried to give a new dream car for MSV–everything a MSV wants–when they say no to their face and say they still want to drive their 3 cylinder 1980’s fart box.
Today I learned that because RSV fans might not be perfectly happy with some mobility compromise we might as well have SV compromise its ranged aspect entirely, thouroughly alienating most of the class’s playerbase to the point that they take every opportunity to avoid the spec. In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.
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