Oh well we trie

Classes Hunter
121

Aha, but you missed a little something. What else spends Focus for SV? ARCANE SHOT. FORTY FOCUS a pop.

You weren’t thinking outside of the box there. With the tier set, I have a reliable core ranged rotation. I can use Arcane Shot as a substitute for Raptor.

I’m probably more confused about your lack of critical thinking. Maybe if you thought more critically, I’d have less to be confused about?

That was then and this is now. I kept arguing that Blizzard is teeter-tottering. Maybe they’re trying to see WHICH is more popular now by the Hunter playerbase. It’s ad populum.

Because there’s plenty of other ways to do tier set bonuses however differently to go ahead and reinforce more melee. But why did Blizzard do a 180°?

When the only people who complained about it were the MSV politicians, that showed everyone where they stood. It seemed to be a skill check for those people.

I agree there was no difficulty, but maybe that’s because I’m just smarter than most Hunters. The less smart ones…complained. Maybe?

That’s irrelevant when WFB already had the lion’s share of DPS back then. If you weren’t spamming nades, you weren’t playing optimal at all whether melee or ranged. I just took advantage of the ranged privilege then.

Maybe not being in melee was a 5-10% DPS loss. But what was GAINED for it? It could be that the M+ group I was with appreciated not having to heal me as much since I was more easily out of the bad.

You forget that DAMAGE is the only thing that matters. That’s the only thing EVERYONE gives a holy damn about. If you’re parsing orange, WHO CARES? And given this is a class/spec that brings too little of any other useful group utility, it makes damage even more important, especially both ST and AoE capability.

The ends justify the means as we all know in this thing. If it bothered you that much, it’s as simple as rerolling to something else that does comparable DPS with a more honest rotation. But it sounds like you’d rather complain about a good thing that a spec never gets in so darn long. I really wish we could flush out all the non-Hunter mains out of the class. Stop alting this class if it bothered you that much.

In fact, I kept that card until I was ready to play it. ARCANE SHOT, baby. I can spend the Focus from range with that ability. Boy howdy, if I was current in 10.1 having grinded out the tier sets, it would literally be…the bomb.

As Arcshot cost 40F, you get FOUR SECONDS off the WFB for the PRICE of THREE Arcs. That’s BETTER than what you get from Raptor. And last time I checked, Arcshot still cost 40, Live.

122

Which barely does any damage at all and is exclusively single target. So, like I’ve been saying from the beginning, it’s not optimal and weak to try to force RSV now. Or, you can play the intended way, and spend focus in both ST and AoE with MB/Butchery

You can choose to play poorly, and perform poorly, to get your desired results. Just like you can play Enhancement or Unholy as ranged DPS. How come you don’t consider those ranged?

They didn’t you’re just really confused and not looking at things you don’t want to look at. It reinforces melee fine. Having two Mongoose Bite tier sets back to back would make people upset.

You’re so full of yourself, come on now. How is pressing KC on repeat “smart” gameplay?

You aren’t reading what I’m saying at all. Nobody thought it was a difficult tier set, people complained about the exact opposite. Unhealthy gameplay is spamming KC over and over. You can pretend it makes you some sort of enlightened gamer all you want but it’s just not good design to spam your generator and hope for RNG.

And playing in range = less nades to spam. You’re arguing against your own logic. It’s fine if you just admit you prefer playing suboptimal or easier builds, but don’t lie and pretend it’s because you’re operating on some higher plane of talent.

123

I am well aware. Just look at the game as it is right now. How many full range DPS exist now with full mobility? Just 1. Do you think this could be indicative of anything? Why do you think whenever a range DPS is close to full mobility its mobility is nerfed? Do you think this means the devs believe that a fully ranged DPS should not also be fully mobile?

And this is why I think you’re being too anal. Why is using a venomous laced arrow any more particularly enhancing a projectile than making a razor tipped arrow? Why is using different weighted ammunitions not the spec fantasy, but why is using different enchanted arrows?

How does the current class (note: class, not spec) fantasy not take away design space from your pretend RSV? The current class itself uses enchanted/augmented arrows (arcane shot, serpent sting, explosive shot) and BM itself even uses things like Cobra Shot. That’s a lot of work removing those from a class generic design pool and moving all of that idea space to a RSV that will never be.

It’s splitting hairs, though. That’s why it was reworked 8 years ago. Because the devs clearly agreed with the portion of the player base that felt the specs were too similar.

Thankfully, you can play classic right now to relieve your dream spec.

Go on, tell me what your preferred core game-play loop is.

I really hope it’s not maintaining two dots and waiting for proc resets, cause that is very easily put on to current MM, especially because the spec already has two dots it easily maintains.

Yes, really? How is MM any more proficient at using their weapon than Arms is? You didn’t answer my question.

All of this applies to every melee DPS in the game. Arms warrior focuses on becoming an expert at what can be done with their weapon to hit harder, more precisely, and train themselves to use a variety of weapons. The same can be said about Outlaw, the same can be said about Windwalker, etc.

The same can even be said about Survival. Becoming a “weapons expert” is a very generic and vague “spec fantasy” that applies to almost half of the specs in the game.

There are far more discussion spaces outside of the wow forums

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It’s comparable to a vanilla Raptor.

Only the devs make that call whether it’s poor gameplay or not. It’s the numbers.

As far as Hance and UH goes, I would suggest talking to the subject matter experts there in those forums. Maybe a few found out a way to optimize ranged play?

Aha. WHICH people would get upset?

Craptastic strawman. You have to look for the Mad Bomb proc without depleting your charges of WFB. Did you even play SV during 9.2.5 like I actually did?

*You watched for the proc but you also made sure you did two important things: don’t stay at 2 charges of WFB and don’t stay at 0 charges. This meant you watched for the ~14 sec recharge and do your best to have 1-2 charges ready for the next MB proc. So it was more complicated than just spamming KC everytime you could. It synergized well with Pheromones in this way, so “red” was an awesome color to look forward to as well given the rng of Infusion.

First off, as I explained to Malia, DPS is the only thing that matters. You don’t get invited to raids and M+ because you have a well-designed rotation. You get invited because you can blow big wad numbers. To the esoteric community, they don’t care how the sausage is made. Funnily enough, they cared when it stole the thunder from other DPSers.

This is common sense, this part at least. You and some others are the only person who cares how the sausage is made.

I mained the class since half thru WoD. That means I’m already ahead of all the post-Leg underage band. Even so, I do homework. I research. I’m a graduate-level student trying to come up with dissertations. I look at possibilities. This is what the hardcore people do.

I’m not saying I would get it right all the time, because we would all get it wrong before we get it right unless we’re lucky to get it right the first time.

If this was still 10.0, I might not have gone this far in this discussion. Because I have real 9.2.5 experience and people on the forums were upset that I was a FOTMer(and I agree, because it was revolutionary). I was able to punch above my weight in M+ then. 10.1 gave RSV hope, what hope it is.

Edit: I forgot to mention that KC and WFB don’t factor in raw weapon DPS(just the stats) either as your pet and your bombs are different weapons altogether. It’s neutral when it comes to ranged weapons vs. 2Hers, so this is also why it adds to the confusion of some.

I’m already blue in the face saying the revamp really needs to make one hard binary choice. Only then can we start talking about how SV can compete with the melee DPS or with the ranged DPS on changes, tuning, etc…

125

I’m asking you what you feel.

Which is a bit of a weird comparison to make since you take Mongoose Bite and all of the associated +% talents.

Bitter forum posters. The same people super mad at BM’s current tier set, or just more casual gamers that want more of a shake up than two MB tier sets in a row.

Yes of course I did. You don’t “look” for anything you just kept a single charge on cooldown in the most normal gameplay possible and the exact same way you played pre 9.2 You got a mad bomber proc, you spent it.

No, it really wasn’t. You cycled through WFI so fast you would get red bomb an awful lot and when you did you just spammed KC.

That also leads to how unhealthy it was because if you didn’t get enough red cycles it felt very, very bad.

Well, you already said you didn’t play in DF, so you’re not ahead of anyone anymore. :slight_smile:

You’re seeing things that aren’t there. MSV is here to stay for the rest of the expansion.

So do I, and so do plenty of people in the community.

Keep getting blue then cause you’re mad at something that’s not the case. It’s a mDPS that’s considered melee in every facet of the game, you do your damage by being in melee, you’re targetted by melee mechanics for bosses, your kick is melee, etc.

aside from warriors, almost every melee DPS in the game has ranged capabilities and I am happy to go over them with you if you would like. curiously, those players aren’t as “confused” as you are

126

So you are so smart that you were unable to avoid frontals and sacrificed damage for it? the spec was easy sounds like you are just coping because you are bad at the game and the degen gameplay meant even if you were bad you could still do big damage (cuz it was easy).

you literally spammed kc with red bomb and threw ur wfb when u got procs or hit 2 stacks. This is truly some of the dumbest stuff I’ve seen on the forums.

looking at your logs it was a low bar to punch above

128

Well, I think it feels good, in a way. Because MeleeCraft; for TOO LONG this entire game has favored melee. It wouldn’t HURT to see RANGED get more of a piece of the pie.

Or forced to take. Yes, under duress I picked some that I wouldn’t otherwise care to use.

Are those the people that matter? That was the pretense of my question there. Do they matter as in making the class/spec good for all?

Since they’re upset about BM’s tier set, that’s a grossly high concern for just one spec(BM) over the others. I’m not sure I would have much in the ways of dealings with those.

Which wasn’t guaranteed. It was tricky.

I bet the NUMBERS really felt good.

That has less to do with this topic than the mere TRUTH that WPVP IS DEAD ON RETAIL. Dead as in its true spirit is gone. Dead as in Blizzard has virtually discontinued it. That’s why I made the move to migrate to Classic, so I can WPvP like I used to again.

And the thing about WPvP is that you have to know your stuff to a tee. That makes the difference between a clean gank, a dirty gank, and getting your butt handed to you in 2 seconds.

It’s genius sight. I can see things you can’t see. You can’t see it, ergo it’s not there. I know it’s there because I CAN see it. And what I’m seeing is: RSV still has a fighting chance to win this. That’s not saying MSV doesn’t, but it’s equaled out in a dead heat.

In the context of playing SV, yes? Due to the unpopularity(at the time) of SL and the Blizz scandals, 9.2.5 wasn’t played as much.

Well no, before we can start getting SV more represented in endgame content, we have to get through the ABC first. That’s the first thing of order: to decide if it shall be a full melee or full ranged. If we don’t do this first, we can’t bring to the table competing damage and utility and other things an SV would be considered for either a melee or ranged billet in a raid, M+ group, or Arena comp. It has to pick a side first.

That’s what made 9.2.5 so frickin’ awesome, my dude. My M+ group couldn’t believe what they saw. Granted, I still used my melee toolkit(particularly on bosses), but I was spamming MIRV nades like a QTF Demoman. The Wildfire Cluster was a Gucci leggo.

If we’re going to go down that road, I shouldn’t even talk to most of the Hunter community who go for the low-hanging fruit and settle to play BM. That means that an SV or MM, let alone those that know their stuff, is VERY RARE. I would know them by a first-name basis.

So watch out about that because most Hunters gave up to either reroll or go BM. I don’t want to even look at most of them. I know that sounds elitist, but it’s pointless with them. They made their choice.

Well, I was invited by a certain Malygosian guild that would be considered core raiders/core dungeoneers. If you ask the guys at Soulbound-Malygos, they can vouch for my testimony back then. In fact, they wanted me to do SV every time, even though I was a dedicated Marks main.

129

It wasn’t tricky, it was RNG and degenerate. You prayed you got a proc, because getting a proc meant you’d get a phero bomb eventually, which means you’d get more procs. Unhealthy and opressive.

Gee, I wonder why you’re forced to take melee talents on a melee DPS spec. Really makes one wonder

Absurd take, the game favored range in PvE for so long. It’s only shifted to be more neutral recently

Yes, of course. Everyones feelings matter at the game they play. Having two tier sets back to back do the same things would feel bad if most every other spec got something new and shiny.

the NUMBERS felt good IF you got an RNG proc. and even then, spamming your generator to proc fish didn’t feel good as the patch went on and season 4 started

completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. you acted like your opinion mattered more because you “mained” hunter halfway through WoD which you felt gave you some sort of perceived authority over current players or other hunter players.

Not to mention, if you don’t play current Hunter, having an opinion on current Hunter is kind of bizarre…

You’re delusional, there’s an equal chance Fire mage goes melee or Arms warrior goes ranged. The last two DPS specs added to the game (augmentation and devastation) are ranged, so they’re not going to take away a melee and add a new ranged DPS.

Because it’s nonsense champ they even in beta it’s staying melee and none of the talents are made to support or push RSV

Yes? I 've played SV ever since it went melee.

this has been decided, it’s a melee dps.

it needs a mandatory and unique raid buff like every other melee DPS has. easy solution, glad we had this talk

130

It was like 40%, I think? I don’t necessarily agree it couldn’t use improvement, and maybe that was Blizz’ way of keeping the damage low. But I sure do miss it.

The reason why was to JUSTIFY having RDPS in the FIRST place. You probably noticed that until Evokers, every new class to the game has been a MELEE. So ad populum, melee was always popular, but if range didn’t get favor it would be an existential problem for them.

Blizzard put in the development work to have those said ranged classes. Why bother spending all those manhours doing that if they can’t be put to use?

Not at the expense of others’ feelings, therein lies the rub. No one’s feelings matter more than anyone else’s.

It was a dividing line. The people that LOVED using it stood in one side apart from those who hated it. You can tell that I liked it, I loved it, and I wanted more of it. I’m not really sympathetic to those who hated it because the way I see it, SV sucked until that instance of 9.2.5… That’s almost three entire expansion cycles of suuuuuuck.

Because I went to Hunter graduate school?

Yes and no. I play it on Retail at 60, and now I can say I play it both on Retail and Classic at the same number, aha.

You know what? If Mages and Warriors want that, then that’s on them. They got to figure it out whether or not it’s a good direction for their classes. This is about Hunters here.

It’s nonsense to those who can’t see it. You’re just giving it up like it’s sour grapes. I can’t see it FOR you. I can point my finger and guide you, but the rest from there isn’t up to me. I honestly didn’t think Blizz was going to bring 9.2.5 sexy back so you might have noticed I was VERY QUIET last patch. So even the same thing applies to me, but I’m not an insider or anything.

I’m surprised you made it this far since SV got progressively more ranged since Leg. If you loved MSV, you would have QQed when BFA hit. But I believe you thought that MSV was worth it in the face of additional RANGED capability.

I don’t even want to talk about that bag of dog doo that was Leg SV, to be honest. HUUAAAHP! Blizz knew they needed to walk some things back.

As much as I’ve tried to talk over your trolling, I can’t deny you’re going to stick to this while we would continue to suffer across the board unless the REAL PROBLEM gets taken care of. I really hope this revamp gets you to shut this up so we can all move on and retire it.

Enjoy it while you can because if the revamp does as it should, nobody is going to listen to the same drivel you’ve given me and everyone else who is already tired of it here. We’ll actually talk about productive things that get a piece of the pie for the class in a time hopefully not too much longer from now.

I’d like to see the Hunter revamp as early as 10.2 or 10.3.

131

lol wot

this means literally nothing its a random hc guild and sv was so broken that if ur bad at both might as well play the op one.

and I have no idea what on earth you’re on about here

same with this.

I think you need to put down the pipe and actually think before you type just once lol.

its funny you say this when Asthelon can put together a coherent paragraph and actually makes valid points while u ramble on about god knows what.

132

Graduate school means you actually have to do your own research in a field.

That’s the community talk right there and I don’t know why you’re in my class talking to me like that.

Maybe we shouldn’t clarify, just to keep it polite. :slight_smile:

Wrong generation, my dude. Do you mind talking to the 20-somethings about this?

He’s a good troll, I’ll give him that much. But he couldn’t stop what happened in 10.1. He may not stop what’s going to happen in 10.2-3, or 11.0.

133

man, can you lay off with this… disdain for your fellow hunters? the “i’m smarter than most other hunters” and “BM players are stupid” and “SV players aren’t real hunters” stuff. accusing others of being trolls because they disagree with you, too. it’s unbecoming. we all want what is, in each of our opinions, best for the spec and/or class. we probably wouldn’t be here otherwise.

anyway. arcane shot is… not a very good trump card, i think. blowing through all your focus as fast as possible with an expensive ability that does low damage, just to get four seconds off of WFB, sounds like a good way to wind up with empty GCD’s and nothing to show for it. of course, i haven’t tested such a build myself so i could be wrong on that front–but either way, i very much doubt the devs intended for anyone to play that way. especially not as some roundabout way to find out whether people would prefer playing at range.

basically i think SV’s current setup of mixing melee and ranged abilities is a non-issue. i think it’d be a big step backwards to try and nail survival down to 100% melee or 100% ranged abilities. and i think that retribution’s recent revamp suggests the devs still feel it’s fine for a spec to have a mix of melee and ranged abilities.

1 Like
134

I’m getting the same treatment, so you know what? Screw it. Let it happen or not.

We got nothing to show for it but a legacy of ashes now, but that can be changed for the better. “Nah Jackal, Hunter’s class fine the way it is,” is a good way for me to blackmark you from further discussion.

I’m actually trying to be a friend and come to the middle, but they don’t want to do that. So screw it; they can be my enemy. They’re on their own. I know that for the MSV gang, the bigger melee community will ride roughshod on them. Oh well, let it happen. I’m sick and tired of it already.

135

It was a 40% chance on a flanker’s advantage proc (your kill command resetting) so a 40% chance on a 25% chance proc on using your generator. that’s why the interaction with pheromone bomb was so unhealthy because it guaranteed kill command resets so greatly increased the amount of mad bomb procs you got, which encouraged mindless KC spam to fish for procs for more bombs, etc

and a tremendous amount of fights in the game favored ranged far before evoker was added to the game. you used to only bring the melee dps you absolutely had to (things like rallying cry or chaos brand)

sure, but you seem to be implying this group of people doesn’t matter, which isn’t right

you are not the only person in the world, in this forum, or even in this discussion that played the game prior to 2016. your perspective does not matter more than anyone elses

generally the people that “loved it” were fotm rollers like yourself because it revolved entirely around an RNG and degenerate loop

sure, and it’s about SV being melee, which it is. I brought those things up because they’re just as unlikely to swap as sv is

why? bfa gave it a more cohesive identity and gameplay loop. only the most deranged weirdos would freak out if their melee spec has a few ranged abilities. again I ask you

did you know enhancement has ranged abilities?
do you know retribution does?
do you know feral does?
do you know frost death knight has ranged abilities?
do you know unholy death knight has ranged abilities?
do you know outlaw rogue has ranged abilities?
do you know windwalker monk has ranged abilities?

getting a ranged ability doesn’t immediately compromise the made up integrity of a spec.

if having a ranged ability means your melee spec is suddenly up for debate, then again, isn’t BM a melee DPS since you can use the abilities at 5y? isn’t fire mage?

I’m not trolling at all bud. go play the game right now, survival is designated for melee boss mechanics. why do you think that is? do you think it’s because it’s melee?

ask any actual, serious hunter player. the REAL PROBLEM is something the entire class faces and that is it has no unique reason to bring it compared to every other class in the game

using words like “drivel” doesn’t make your argument right and insulting someone doesn’t do you any favors. just because someone disagrees with you and has the time and energy to discuss things with you, highlight where you’re wrong, bring up other examples in the same design space to try to get you to think critically, doesn’t mean they’re trolling

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136

I’m done with this. You can have it. If it’s all the same to you, you can deal with the non-Hunters. You’re on your own. I legitimately tried, and it looks like unless I can find someone worthy, there’s not much I can share and contribute.

137

??? what are you on lmao

138

At first I thought I was losing my patience, I was really casting pearls before swine. The wrong people playing this class will never get it. Ever. But I know I can reach out to the right ones and help them out. That’s all I can do anymore.

Because make no mistake, I’ve done a lot in this class and I’ve been through the darkest moments this class had on Retail. I don’t have to prove myself to anyone. I don’t have to put up with people who don’t pick up.

140

like what? genuine question

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141

If nobody listens and understands me, then it doesn’t matter. If I speak the truth, it doesn’t matter where and how I got the truth from. So no, I’m not answering that.

I’m making a decision now to blackmark all MSV enthusiasts, for them to not come to me, not talk to me about the Hunter class and its specs, to petition me to support them. Because if they don’t want to be my friend, they’re on their own. They can QQ the game when they don’t get what they want for all I care now, or they can give it up for something else. If they have a new interest in MM or RSV, I can then talk to them.

I was even prepared to give a better MSV to them on a silver platter, and they didn’t take me seriously. Hey, if they want it that bad, it’s theirs, and then it’s between them and the rest of the mean-dog-mean melee community that will FIGHT EVEN HARDER to keep THEIR CLASS/SPECS in the running against MSV. I tried to help, and they swat my hand away. Screw them, they’re on their own. I’m fed up with it now. I lost it.

And I will scream in laughter when RSV comes back full swing. But if not, it’s the dusty ol’ trail. GL;HF with the rest of the community.

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ok but who actually are you lol. What have you done for the hunter class are you a dev or ex dev or just a complete loon?