You get a grip. I have access to everything a SIXTY can get. I can look at the stuff from the ground level, because I still have an active sub. I otherwise wouldn’t be able to play Classic for the past three weeks.
Yes, objectively? You can look at them right now yourself if you want. Steady Shot doesn’t cost focus, or generate focus, and it deals an incredibly low amount of damage as SV. Barrage is just worse than Explosive Shot as SV, because of the Ranger talented you mentioned. We already went over Arcane Shot. We already went over a ranged weapon losing you access to Lunge.
I’m forgetting something, please correct me.
Here’s the quote. For context, the interviewer asked if any existing specs would be reworked to support DPs like Aug.
" Even if historically, Enhancement Shaman may have signed up 15 years ago for this type of gameplay, if you’re playing that spec today or in recent years, you’re playing it because you like Shaman, you like playing melee DPS, you like doing big numbers as melee DPS. We wouldn’t want to change that out from under people"
You can read this quote and directly interpret that exclusively Enhancement won’t be reworked to Support DPS or you can read his words directly and see that he himself says “we won’t change the roles of spec as they are currently playing.”
This means that well…MSV is staying MSV.
I’m on the edge of my seat. You can use wowhead’s talent calculator here: https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/hunter/survival.
On what grounds?
You don’t counter anything I say. You just say “well you can’t consider that. Or this.” You’ve provided no evidence for your point, you don’t even bother to provide vague evidence besides plugging your ears and saying “nuh uh.”
That’s not what that’s talking about. This is not talking about range type, but DPS versus Support. So Ion was saying Hance would remain as a solid melee DPS as opposed to a support melee DPS(which I often said in jest about post-Leg SV anyway).
So if SV was a support melee this entire time, then it stands to reason that Ion would believe it would stay as a support melee. I wish he talked about Hunters as opposed to Shamans because Shamans were always a HYYYYBRRIIID CLASS, which literally means they can do more than ONE role.
Hunters were one of the few PURE CLASSES.
Nothing to counter.
We have to stick to the boundaries of the topic.
That’s fine so far.
It doesn’t do a lot of damage as Marks either, duh. However, it’s there to be used all the same as needed.
Thanks, but I can pull it up from either one of the two 60 Hunters I have in Retail.
You made a very extreme claim. I gave you direct evidence that countered yours. Then you never really said anything against that.
It still is a pure DPS class. Ion said “we won’t change the role of the class you’re playing. If you play enhancement, you pick that to be Melee DPS” . You can easily extrapolate that to any specs. Just like nobody expects Disc to become DPS or Arms to go range or SV to go range.
Well the topic was you initially saying that RSV was comparable, viable, and competitive with MSV.
Then you said “well, don’t consider AoE” then you said “Well don’t consider damage, just consider amount of WFB” then you said “Well it doesn’t matter they get the same WFB you aren’t factoring in everything you can do with a ranged weapon”
So, correct me. Tell me explicitly why, how, and where I am wrong without resorting to nonsense
It generates Focus for Marks. It doesn’t do that for SV. So you would be wasting valuable time casting Steady Shot that does low damage and grants you 0 Focus.
I’m still waiting
No, you were stroking MSV e-peen and proving it to be superior to RSV, despite the contrary evidence of 10.1 and that which is yet to come. Don’t sugarcoat it and try to flatter my intelligence like that. I knew what you were doing. You went off-topic because I never wanted to discuss which of the two is stronger right now, but that the revamp that is coming later(rather than sooner, since it won’t hit on 10.1.5) may make things different.
Blizzard doesn’t even know this is going to hit off, and I think it’s a bad idea because it FORCES group play in a day and age that has only gotten more anti-social due to the social contract. When you can just bring the player and not the class, it’s a lot better. It dehumanizes people further to bring the class…
I can already tell them that’s been said and done before in Vanilla and it failed. I don’t care if Tigole and Furor are no longer involved with that, especially the latter.
That was a claim I made on the side, that thankfully now with the tier set bonus, the disparity is much smaller. Because if this was 10.0, we wouldn’t have had this conversation, because MSV had won then. But that was then…and this is…now.
Because I already know that they blocked out Carve/Butchery or an AoE equivalent for ranged weapons. And yes, that does suck. A lot. That’s already a sore subject, BUT it can still change. Let’s hope.
I wish you wouldn’t resort to nonsense too. It takes two to tango, bud.
That depends if you got nothing else to use atm, which is the same premise for Marks. I tell MMs all the time not to worry about improving Steadies because if you’re busy enough with RFires, AShots, and KShots, you should only cast Steady when you have to. It’s the same principle with SV.
Keep waiting. But while you’re waiting, you could do more on your Hunter, that is…IF YOU HAVE ONE.
Show me the contrary evidence. Show me actual, concrete evidence on why you feel RSV is superior to MSV, despite the damage being lower.
The revamp that is entirely in your mind, you mean? The one you’re making up and hoping for right now?
Your entire paragraph here has nothing to do with what’s being discussed. Ion said they will no longer shake up drastically the role of any existing spec.
So…tell me the now. What does RSV have right now that MSV doesn’t? I gave you a very objective number breakdown just earlier this evening and you completely ignored it.
As we went over earlier, MSV is more incentivized through the current tier set as MSV deals far more damage spending Focus than RSV.
It’s not going to change. There’s a higher chance of Destruction Warlock going melee.
You kept moving the goal posts for the discussion until you agreed that RSV doesn’t even generate MORE bombs, just the same amount (while dealing less damage)
Point out the nonsense
Your only usable, non cooldown options as RSV exclusive options right now are the abilities I mentioned. You brought up that I’m not factoring in things only RSV gets, and I’m still waiting for you to tell me just what exactly that is
MSV is failing in the community. Period, full stop. People like you subverted and destroyed this class. That’s enough for me to kick you out of the clubhouse. I don’t know why even all this time Blizzard keeps kicking the can down the road, but maybe this time they’ll stop doing that.
You’ll want to talk to the devs about that. I can’t say I’m one of them.
You weren’t listening. They’re going to experiment with it first starting with Augmentation spec. If that’s what the community wants entirely, then we’ll see it explode. If not, then Evoker will be the only thing and it’ll remain only in DF history.
You have to read in between the lines. Ion saying that they won’t shake up the existing specs by their roles is the SAFE thing to say. You don’t know if they’ll change their mind later, especially by popular demand…
Let’s stick with, “What does RSV have right now?”
Because we already know what MSV still has.
Still waiting on the actual report on that, besides the frilly theorycrafting.
But now, as opposed to 10.0, RSV is catching up. You are so ticked off that it happened that you’re unleashing it on RSV folk like me, that’s what that is. You are angry and bitter that now, RSV can come much closer. And you know? That’s music to my ears, buddy. You can sit and stew in it.
That has absolutely nothing to do with your point of RSV being superior or competitive and you know it.
Did you know there are specs less played than SV? Does that mean they are failures? Did you know that despite MSV being unpopular, there are still more MSV players than RSV players?
So…it’s a made up revamp that you’re desperately hoping for, that’s never been discussed officially, and directly goes against what the director of the game said just today?
You’re literally reading the exact opposite of what he’s saying. He said that if augmentation lands well there 1) existing specs could get minor support abilities 2) they would add new support specs to the game.
He directly said that no existing specs would ever be shaken up again. If you play Enh, you can expect it to stay melee DPS for the future, and that can be extrapolated to every other existing spec in the game
Okay, tell me what it has right now that MSV doesn’t that gives it a leg up. So far, you have an extremely weak steady shot, an extremely weak a barrage, and a weak arcane shot.
What actual report would you be happy with? I gave you in game numbers, you can log on to your retail hunter and see for yourself, right now, that arcane shot does less than mongoose bite
Catching up to what? It isn’t close, at all, to MSV
You’re the only one upset here I don’t know what to tell you. You’ve called me a troll, you’ve effectively called me stupid, and you still haven’t shown me any evidence for your point
It’s not there yet, but it just might be. RSV is making a comeback, and I would be among the first to demonstrate.
Specs less played than SV…interesting. Well, yeah, you can consider that a failure. What is a game that is not played? If almost nobody touches a board game or card game, what is that game? What is the point of a game? To have fun.
So SV might not be the only unfun thing around, but that can change.
If you can stop being obtuse and get on my level, that would help you a lot, wouldn’t it? There’s already threads in this class forum talking about it.
It’s nothing but speculation and conjecture(and those are words Ion should especially know) at this point. It’s easy to talk about it before it actually happens.
I personally wouldn’t take Barrage anyway. You can opt for Death Chakram instead, or take Alpha Predator. BOTH are better RSV options than Barrage. And no, you still have Ranger talent improving the “weak” arcshots and steadies.
Not actual DPS numbers…
I will take that as a fabricated falsehood.
Projection and deflection. I’m the salty one for sure, despite that I’m salty for other reasons anyway.
Be my guest and demonstrate. In retail, right now, RSV is not making a comeback. Because it does very, very low damage.
There are people sharing their own, made-up, fantasy reworks. There has been nothing confirmed officially.
Another example of you belittling people and trying to claim superiority on everyone else. Please, tell me how I am being obtuse here. You’re pretending there is a rework confirmed.
So exactly what you’re doing about your made up rework? I don’t know, something tells me the director of the game has a bit more authority on what happens to WoW than a random forum poster.
If you choose to not understand what Ion is saying, that’s on you.
The 40% increase from Ranger was already factored in. They do very weak damage for SV.
Neither of which are only available to your forced RSV. You said “you aren’t considering what ranged SV has access to with a ranged weapon” and again I ask, what exactly is exclusive to your RSV besides arcane shot, steady shot, and barrage?
Yes those are actual in game numbers. You can log in right now yourself and see, like I just told you moments ago what the numbers look like on your own character.
Okay, but why? I gave you numbers, you haven’t provided anything contrary. You’re literally saying “well this is false, because I don’t agree with it.”
You called me obtuse in this exact reply to me. Yes, you are mad
I gave you ample evidence proving you wrong, and you told me “no this doesn’t count, I don’t believe you, you’re a liar” and that’s all you do. You don’t show any evidence for your own points or arguments, you only say “I don’t agree with what you say”
Are you going to buy me a copy of DF with that invitation?
It’s coming down the pipe. The talent trees were already changed since before 10.0 hit. Where were you when Marks lost Double Tap? If Double Tap was part of the DF tree, then how come it was removed? And you think it’s fantasy that it won’t happen again? It’s happening right now! Not in this class yet, but others.
How about the fact that I have over 200 days as Hunter? I can choose to reserve the privilege of superiority if I so wish, and it’s rather tempting as of late. Very few in the entire community can even stand up to me in Hunter skill, and I know those people on a first-name basis. You only look more obtuse because no Hunter with my experience or greater would even talk like you at all. I know not one.
Talk is cheap, dude, and actions speak louder than words. He can GET people on the Hunter class and have what needs to be fixed, fixed, BY next patch, if we believe his words and his authority matter so greatly.
Hmm.
Never mind, dude. I’ll try and sim it later, or ask someone who can do it.
You gave me the wrong numbers to satisfy and support your own argument, and I just wasn’t going to accept it. Case closed on that.
It’s because you are. I don’t even need to say it, because others already have for the same exact reasons and you simply are. Me saying it just makes it a bonus, and if I say you’re obtuse, that goes a much LONGER way in highlighting how terribad of a Hunter you really are. Because of who I AM, I know who the good Hunters are from the bad ones.
Stop trying to eschew things and it’ll be a lot more civil. This hostility is deserved, already because 1) you’re a bad Hunter without experience and even distinction because I’m not convinced otherwise, 2) you deliberately troll on campaign to ruin THIS class, 3) you support MSV which has failed as a concept and a thing of existence since Leg, and 4) you’re already bitter that RSV is resurrected, as it were, because 4a) you hated the success that was 9.2.5 SV.
I don’t have to respect you. I don’t have to give anything to you. I’m rather amused that you lost control and you don’t know how this is going to go in the future. Meanwhile, I’m upset about Hello Kitty Island Adventure and looking to see what WPvP I can get on Classic, where the real PvP is anyway. Not to mention those were HAPPIER times for Hunter, something that you should be celebrating more if you were ever a true Hunter.
I was very quiet in 10.0. The only thing I was salty about was that Blizzard didn’t allow weapon interchangeability for KShot, and CoordA. I thought a 2Her needed for KShot for SV was dumb, despite that MM makes more use of KShot. That’s when I knew Blizz screwed up again and it was pointless to keep going, until 10.1. I had other IRL projects to do and other games to play, so I ditched it. Nothing really burned my butt more than the lack of WPvP and how the community cried and cried about it, and the fact that Blizzard turned off the 9.2.5. tier set bonuses at 10.0.
Two things can be true here.
First, I think the high ranged capability of SV is indicative of influence from the ranged foundation of the class. They couldn’t get away with making SV fully melee in Legion so they had to heavily compromise towards the ranged aspect of the class by giving SV ranged abilities and a pseudo ranged weapon. Wildfire Bomb has taken a much more prominent role and is the most aesthetically prominent part of the spec (although they moved back towards Mongoose Bite in DF) and the melee parts of the kit are both few in number and also the most boring and generic parts. It may open up a path to a hypothetical ranged SV in the distant future, but to get there we honestly need what happened to lead to melee SV in the first place; a change in leadership.
This brings me to the second point: SV is not a ranged spec. It’s not viable to be played at ranged, and its not even close. While a majority of the abilities are ranged, most of the damage output is melee. You can make up a surprising amount of the gap given it’s a melee spec, but it’s still a melee spec. It depends on melee interactions to deal its full damage potential. Without those, and outside of Aspect of the Eagle windows, I’d guess you’re looking at 50-70% of your maximum possible damage if playing exclusively at range and that’s probably being generous. That can work out for world questing but it’s not going to play out well in any sort of competitive environment.
SV should be a ranged spec. It was a stupid decision to make it melee, it was an even more stupid decision to double down on it, and it’s the primary reason the spec is such a basket case (despite all attempts to deflect scrutiny to MM, a spec that has held up far better in the same period of time). The arguments to keep it melee are mostly delusional and the talk of melee-obsessed fanatics who can’t comprehend specs being interesting or distinct as ranged. This includes the developers. But they’re not currently on the path to making SV melee. Like I said we’d need a change in leadership for that. I do think Hazzikostas is a deeply petty and inept person who’s primarily responsible for driving the last two expansions into the ground, but he’s also extremely stubborn and persistent. He’s NEVER going to admit fault on their SV direction. Until we get someone better leading WoW’s development we’re stuck with his mistakes.
P.S. You really don’t have the sort of experience to make authoritative statements even at 200 days played, especially if you really are only level 60. You’ve missed a lot of Dragonflight-specific class design by not seeing those last few talent points. If days played is such a decisive metric for you, here’s a Hunter with 500+ days played saying this.
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That would be nice to see. And I have no disagreement there.
Well, I did it in 9.2.5. Melee actually seemed to be more elective than ever since after Legion. It was a spark of hope that SV could go in the way of a true grenadier, which could re-revolutionize the spec.
Then I saw 10.0 and I was greatly disappointed, but I didn’t think there’d be a comeback in 10.1. And we haven’t even seen the revamp yet.
All the same, Ion does have a bad reputation, but guess who also had bad reputations? Jeff Kaplan? GONE. Alex Afrasiabi? GONE. The lady once known as Caydiem? GONE. Tom Chilton? GONE, to a different place nearby. I start to see a trend that people at Blizzard who have bad reputations don’t seem to last forever. Maybe a good while, but not forever…
That’s only the FIRST and HUMBLEST of decisive metrics. I’ll be nice: instead of 100, I can do 50. 50 days buys you “Hello” from me. So it’s safe to say that anything less than that is assumed that people have dabbled in it a little, played it when it was FOTM, whatever. Not enough to really appreciate it. It’s cool because I have some 20-ish days played in Warrior, Priest, Rogue, etc… Do I stomp about and tell those people how I think things ought to be? Nobody in those forums knows who I am. It was nice to explore those classes, but I never truly mined all the riches out of it as plenty have.
And definitely more for Warlock, people need to tread lightly around me haha.
And I think I have 500+ days played across the board, just not all of it in Hunter. I also have some 70-ish days in Paladin, and that’s another thing. I practice what I preach there too.
And yeah, 10,000 honorable kills in cities as Hunter, and that race is all but virtually over in Retail too because of the anti-WPvP changes. Best case scenario, it would be YEARS before anyone breaks that record, and who knows if WoW will be active then. Even so, I think I made a huge mistake giving what is holy to the dogs, because like I said, anything less than 50 days in Hunter and you might as well not exist to me just like I didn’t exist until I made my bones. Sadly that’s not going to be many people in Retail. That’s harsh, and I don’t want to be harsh, but it’s a harsh community. People hate Hunters, enough said. Gotta be both tough and smart in this business.
TL;DR: While I agree that it was the leadership that’s really the thing at fault, my MSV vs. RSV discussions were actually minimal. I was unhappy as you are, I said it wasn’t even a good melee(and that went on for years), and basically I focused my attention on MeleeCraft(which might still be a thing today), War Mode(which was a failure), Alliance vs. Horde(Horde community won the war in just one patch: 8.1), and simply the plight of Hunters as a whole(the SV change being the JFK assassination). We got creamed across the board since Legion, but I still made a breakthrough and got City Attacker solo in June 2018 as Marksmanship. Not unlike Yugoslavia winning 2 gold medals in Marksmanship in the 1988 Summer Olympics, yea?
In the class’ darkest moment, a world-first WPvP achievement. While SV Hunters were banging rocks together, one ex-Warlock pioneered in a full-ranged, stealth-capable(the best nondetectable), 1v1 GCD machine.
The funny thing was that SV was never taken seriously until 9.2.5. So from 6.0 to 9.2, SV had its butt handed to them in everything. As Hunters counter Hunters, SV wasn’t particularly stronger against MM than any of the other specs. I’d suggest that MM was always the deadliest counter spec against MM. With SV and BM, you can just freeze out their pet. Boom: you got them Viper’ed. CC the pet with anything good and they’re practically invalid.
That meant that the petless Hunter had the better advantage in PvP. It was the “Ranged Rogue”. That was NOTHING BM and SV both can say they had. That’s too bad SV didn’t have a viable petless option. Too much SV power relied on an active pet…
A bottom line: SV could have gone better places than it did.
if moving goalposts was an olympic sport, i think this dude really would win a gold medal. sheesh.
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I’m legionary in my arguing. Even if you rout my first line, there’s a second line and a third line you got to worry about, with centurions that know how to be flexible.
I was nice and polite up until a certain point, but I’m not going to deny knowledge of the utter trash that was and still is post-Leg SV with the outlier of 9.2.5. I think that the Hunter class deserves more, deserves better, and any true Hunter should say the same.
I can’t say that out of all the melee I went up against, I was afraid of SV the most in my time. What a joke SV was back then the whole time. SV would have been one of the EASIEST melee to gank as a Marks. I’ve seen diamonds cut through harder men.
So forget about moving goalposts when all this I just said was always there. I just thought I’d try to move on and look more towards the future, but that’s not what the MSV enthusiasts want. I think 6 years of clownery for SV is enough time to be a clown.
No? You can log in and have access to everything you need to formulate an actual argument or show any proof for your claim
Because it was a boring talent and apparently was too hard to balance around PvP.
Completely meaningless metric. AFKing in Oribos doesn’t mean anything.
I have literally never heard of you in my entire life. If you are among the best of the best, why don’t other people talk about you?
He told you there is no longer going to be any tremendous shake ups with existing specs. MSV is staying.
I’m still waiting. You can log in and look at the numbers.
How were they wrong? They are the direct, in game numbers on my Hunter. Just because you don’t like them, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. You can’t just say “case closed” because you’re afraid of losing an argument.
I’m still waiting for you to bless me with any sort of evidence or information that proves your point.
It’s been a full 9 hours and you haven’t offered any proof besides “I feel this way, you’re wrong!!” You aren’t giving RSV people a very good look, at all.
Well, no. Ion said specs aren’t being shaken up. Do you think this means that Enhancement might get a ranged spec? Or Unholy? What about Retribution? Outlaw? Feral?
To you, sure. Some people like Butchery, some people hate WFB, some people love FotE. Crazy that people can have different opinions.
Versus the arguments to make it ranged being the talk of ranged-obsessed nostalgia blind fanatics? Or are the only fanatics people who disagree with you?
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Yeah, that’s what I thought.
And yet it was one of the most crucial power CDs Marks had. And too hard to balance? It had been balanced before. It was just a noobslicer.
I already said that’s the FIRST to look at. There’s more to consider.
Because fame distracts. Fame subverts. When being famous becomes more important than being the best at something, it’s no longer about skill. Why do you think the utter vast majority of Olympic athletes are practically nobodies?
As Bepples pointed out, if Ion goes, it won’t based on your logic. And given Ion’s bad reputation, there are good odds he can get canned. But that’s another subject for another day.
Good news, bad news: the good news is that I already simmed myself on Raidbots. The bad news is that the program is not accurate for RSV rotation. I can do 9.6k Patchwerk DPS with the regular MSV fare, but 2.8k DPS with the same thing holding a ranged weapon. The sim didn’t know I had other ranged abilities as it only counted WFB, Pet attacks, Serpent Stings, Autoshot, Master Marksman, and CoordA.
The sim also doesn’t know that you can still switch weapons in combat, so much like Vanilla-era Warrior “stance dancing”(bonus points if you even know that was), you can swap to a 2Her to turn on CoordA and go back to your ranged weapon.
I bet this is all too high level for you, but I’m sorry to say that I can only do so much with Raidbot sims. How funny that a sim doesn’t even “access” the entire Hunter repertoire. So much for trying to get A.I. to do something.
You can show me your 70 Hunter and we can explore this more. You just have a 50 DH that’s nigh untraceable conventionally. You exist less than the nonexistent as a Hunter until now. Very sad.
I wouldn’t know, I guess. I played and dominated as Marks, until SL S3. I don’t deny it that RSV never had a serious chance until 9.2.5., and also 10.1 and beyond. I was out of some 90% of all the RSV discussions, only chiming in here and there.
you’re laying out arguments and then going “actually the first thing i said doesn’t matter, what REALLY matters is THIS. okay that doesn’t matter either—“ that’s called moving goalposts, and it shows that you’re not interested in actually discussing anything. if you were, you’d clearly lay out your entire point so that everyone is on the same page, rather than repeatedly changing your argument and wasting everyone’s time.
you are not a legionnaire employing war strategies. you’re a little kid making up new rules every two minutes while playing pretend because you want to be The Winner. you’re going “no i’m super fast, i dodged it! wait no i have a force field!!” every time one of the other kids tries to land a hit
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This doesn’t even make sense. If you are making a claim, you have to back it up. If you don’t think you can, then just concede.
It was a boring CD.
No there isn’t, even Bepples said you don’t really have the authority you think you do. There are no credentials that gives you (or anyone really) the authority to talk down on people disagreeing with you—especially when you don’t have any evidence to back up your claims.
If it’s just about skill, please tell me where I went wrong with my numbers with direct evidence.
People have been saying this since Legion. People say this about every director the game has ever had. Not a valid point.
That’s a mighty big IF.
The only abilities you are missing is Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, and Barrage.
Even more rude dismissal. Also I think it’s funny that you went from “RSV is competitive” to “RSV is comparable” to “RSV in pure ST can use the same amount of WFB” to “RSV can weapon swap to be sort of useful” while maintaining your arrogance
Show me evidence for your claim. I gave you my hunter’s numbers, you can give me your hunter’s numbers.
Umm no. Ability and desire do not always correlate. For instance, I can thirst all day long to understand string theory, but many people understand it better regardless of their thirst to do so.