If you want to cheat in your video games do it, just don’t do it in multiplayer and be honest about it.
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You’re the only one talking about cheating in video games right now, what even is this?
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The trolls are getting desperate.
It is literally a universal, undeniable truth. That’s how the path of least resistance works. Generally speaking, when talking about the choices people make en masse, “default” is essentially synonymous with “path of least resistance”.
I’m saying that people who want to form groups manually would be cornered into using dungeon finder, not vice-versa.
Because it’s not a popularity contest. It’s about what’s better for the experience based on the design philosophy. And dungeon finder is basically the antithesis of the game’s original design philosophy. It changed over the years, but clearly the current WoW team (a handful of whom are some of the original devs, by the way) agrees with many of us that dungeon finder, and maybe some of the other Activision cancer, was horrible for the game in hindsight.
Just a note, what we got in TBC actually wasn’t helpful. It wasn’t very intuitive, and it added some unnecessary extra steps that made it feel bad to use. I see no comparison to draw between the TBC LFG tool and the Wrath Classic one because they have very different functionality and usability.
Wrath Classic’s LFG tool works absolutely fine with the exception of some bugs which are admittedly annoying, but in almost all cases, don’t stop you from creating or joining groups.
Also, I couldn’t comment on how much it’s used because I’m guessing that’s realm specific. Which realm do you main on?
You must be trolling.
Your point is pointless. You know what else would be more efficient? Deleting the game so hundreds of thousands of people don’t waste their time playing it. Games are not about efficiency. You’re drawing a comparison to something that simply didn’t exist in old WoW.
The kind of efficiency you’re talking about is the sort of thing we see in stock trading neural networks or weather forecasts, or modeling realistic simulations in microbiology. The games industry is absolutely a part of the tech world, but the point of it isn’t to maximize the amount of content they can blast through your screen per hour. It’s about creating fun.
Some people enjoy maximum content per hour, but that is not the standard (and certainly not the healthy) way that media was designed or consumed before the recent social media age took off. WoW was never meant to be a “quick fix” game before Activision took over.
Poor Ziryus, his school never taught him how to read. 
It’s amazing how he overcame the insurmountable odds and became a master debater in spite of things. What an inspiration.
You’re alllllmost there. Almost. Maybe if you just read more than the first few words of my statements, you’ll realize that those conclusions you jump to are just figments of your very special imagination.
More like, the trolls have no real arguments, so they made a feeble attempt to latch onto one term I used to try and red herring me out of the conversation. You’re a master at this, you should know!
I’d welcome that because then all of the whiners would immediately be filtered out. 
And to this day, Vanilla/TBC/Wrath are hailed as some of the very best WoW has ever offered. No dungeon finder in sight for the overwhelming majority of the “holy trinity” people love so much.
But Wrath had RDF…
Even during it’s most popular period.
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Doesn’t matter.
We’ve been through this before. Dungeon finder’s place in Wrath Classic is a maybe at best because it was not only controversial for many people, it was also added very late in the game.
I thought we agreed that the sub counts had no provable relation to dungeon finder? I can follow that argument to its conclusion if you want, but I don’t see why you’d want to make dungeon finder look worse if you want it to be implemented in Classic…
And this is why I said ~48%.
That’s not very late by any meaning of the words.
Do it then, follow your own argument to it’s logical conclusion.
You clueless fool that’s not even slightly true. People often choose the harder path because it works better or simply for the extra challenge.
That’s not true either. I had friends that wanted to get achievements that usually couldn’t be done with rdf. They formed groups manually. I always tried to start a group with friends and guildies before joining rdf and sometimes I found a full group and didn’t need the rdf. If we could do it why couldn’t you? If you had friends and a good guild you could start groups without the rdf. Clearly you had no friends in original wrath.
You can claim that all you want. As I said before I’ll just think you’re lying. In my experience it doesn’t and many people have posted pics of the lfg from other servers in prime times showing few to no one using it.
I never said anything about efficiency. I didn’t even use the word once. This is just more bs you’re pulling out of your az because you have nothing rational to say.
Yes, that would be the path of least resistance. But often people don’t choose the path of least resistance. Just as choosing not to level an alt, or not doing dungeons, or just raid logging is the path of least resistance that many are choosing because the lfg tool doesn’t work. The problem has existed from day one of wow. It was a constant complaint for years until rdf was added and solved the problem. Best addition to the game ever.
If you think forming a group is fun I pity you. Only someone completely desperate for social contact could possibly find such trivial and meaningless socialization valuable. People who have real friends and actual social interactions don’t attach meaning to the tedium of finding a group. It’s pathetic that you do. You need to find a good therapist and not try to use the game to fill the hole left by your lack of actual social interactions.
It was only available for about 25% of the content in the game. If it wasn’t one of the very longest content droughts in WoW’s history, that also would’ve been about how much of Wrath’s lifetime if existed for as well.
And even stepping back from that point, even if it was exactly 50/50 and didn’t mostly exist in a content drought that was surely never planned to be that long, it wouldn’t change the fact that it was a controversial change that many people look back on in disdain.
I don’t fault anyone for thinking that it should be in Wrath Classic, but at the same time, it’s absolutely clownish for anyone to fault those of us who think it shouldn’t be.
Not my argument. Just the one you’re trying to provoke. In a world where we have to try and glean anything specifically about dungeon finder from the sub count:
- In all of WoW’s history there was never a dip in subs until after dungeon finder was implemented,
- Before dungeon finder, the subs showed consistent growth and retention. After dungeon finder, the subs showed consistent losses.
- For dungeon finder’s entire lifetime within the officially published numbers, WoW only ever saw 4 increases in subs, and every single one of them coincided with a major content release or an expansion launch,
If we try to read any implications specifically about dungeon finder from the sub count over the years (we shouldn’t), the evidence is overwhelmingly negative, and the only pieces of that could be construed as positive for the tool can much more easily and logically be attributed to other things.
There is no real evidence that specifically points to dungeon finder, good or bad, in the sub counts, but anyone who thinks so is sorely mistaken if they think it favors the system.
LMAO
You heard it here first folks, Miregrim earnestly believes that the easiest path isn’t the most trodden. I might’ve insulted you back, but now I’d just feel guilty about it.
Well I guess that is a completely moot point then. Nice conversation.
L O L
^ That post and this post unedited as of 2023-03-01T13:00:00Z ^
Yeah, I totally need therapy because I enjoy more communication in an MMO rather than less.
Meanwhile, you’re clearly the well-adjusted one, calling other people online mentally ill because they enjoy the old design of an old video game, after calling your own words "just more bs you’re pulling out of your az because you have nothing rational to say." when quoted back to you.
What’s it like to be a living, breathing meme?
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Yes absolutely. It’s simply not possible to have real relationships and friends and be so attached to spamming chat lfg for dungeon x and valuing “invite please” and “thanks for the run.” You must be desperate for any connection no matter how trivial to call what happens when manually forming a group a social interaction. That’s like thinking it’s a social interaction when the walmart greeter says “welcome to walmarts” and getting excited if they ask you for your receipt when you exit the store. You’re a very sad pathetic person.
If you could read you’d know I only claimed that often people will choose the harder path. I can think of many examples. Mountain climbers will often look for the more difficult path up the mountain rather than climb the path of least resistance. Sometimes risking their life and even dying when there are much easier paths to the top.
I agree that “There is no real evidence that specifically points to dungeon finder, good or bad, in the sub counts,” but the arguments you made could be made for many other changes. For example some people hated adding dual spec. One could just as easily say In all of WoW’s history there was never a dip in subs until after dual spec was implemented. And one could easily say that the fact that there was no loss in subs during a year long content drought was because of rdf.
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These forums are wild at times.
EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY
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And? It opens up the opportunity to group with MORE people because of its efficiency. This creates more opportunity to socialize. Shall we not offer more way to socialize? Because that goes against what you claim you are trying to achieve.
This is not really socializing, it’s interaction. “BRT” “OMW” “80 geared hunter inv pls”
None of this is socializing pal, it’s ridiculous that you are implying it is.
Likely so, since more people will be spamming dungeons. You don’t need to use it.
And again. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE IT!
Why should everyone else be held hostage because you can’t show one ounce of self restraint. What happened to all of your friends and guildies. “You should make friends and guild to run stuff.” How about you do the same and we will go ahead and queue. People like you are complete hypocrites.
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I tested your claim last week.
Took 10 minutes to make a normal heroic VH, and that was with me as a dps and 100% pugs at about 930pm (non prime time)
So while you might find it harder, it definatly doable.
The only thing really beeded to"fix" this is heroic and H+ to have separate selections in lfg.
I think that part of the issue is that people play the game for different reasons. I certainly don’t play this game to socialize with random people in my dungeons. I just want to do the dungeon as fast as possible. Am I in the wrong for wanting to do the dungeon quickly? Are you in the wrong for wanting to socialize during the dungeon? These are irrelevant topics and you should just play the game how you want to play the game. I have no issues leaving a group because they don’t go at the pace I’d like to go, and if the group isn’t social enough for you maybe leave and try to find a group you can hang with during the dungeon ya know 
Certainly have no problems with RDF being added. It’s crazy we’ve gone 7 weeks with H+ and they haven’t added the ability to use their current tool to queue specifically for one or the other without needing to specify it in the notes.
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Yes, you are. Because you still havent given a good enough reason for rdf to be added.
Proof of this is that it still isnt in the game, because you dont have to convince me, you have to convince blizzard.
I still think the best way for you to “prove” to blizzard they should add rdf is communicating with all the pro rdf people to cancle their subs at the same time and list no rdf as the reason why. Prove to blizzard its the profitable choice and they will do it. Of course, thats assuming you have enough people do this for blizzard to even notice.
But then again, communicating with others is to hard for you to do, which is why you want rdf…
While i do not want rdf in the game, i 100% agree lfg should have separate listings for H and H+
He doesn’t need to. You are insignificant in this, you’re just another player with misguided notions.
The only reasons is this. The feature was part of the expansion and should be part of the classic experience.
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He has to convince blizzard to add it so he does
As for who is insignificant, all of us are, the only opinion that matters is blizzards.
As for the “it was in origional” argument. This is not. I repeat, this is NOT a carbon copy of wotlk. If you are unhappy with that, vote with your wallet.
It isn’t the fact that it’s the path of least resistance that’s the problem. It’s the consequences of it being the path of least resistance that I have a problem with.
I didn’t state that it was “socializing”, did I? Pretty sure I was just pointing out that the necessity of communication is a good thing in a game that was designed to be social.
Nice strawman though.
Traitorous critic fallacy.
“Don’t like it don’t use it” or “Just stop complaining about it” isn’t a solution to the criticism. It’s a dismissal.
I see your “Don’t like it don’t use it” and I raise you a “Don’t like Classic? Play Retail.”
When did I say any of this?
You clearly don’t know me, and you also have no idea what the word “hypocrite” means. I’d kindly suggest you not use words you don’t understand.
Stop projecting. 
Seriously, it was part of Wrath. It belongs in Wrath Classic. Do people feel the need to justify why Death Knights should be in Wrath?
But the reasons are obvious: the leveling experience is dead without it. Virtually no one runs lower level dungeons. They just collect dust. At max level the dungeon experience is a toxic, gatekeeping mess. Blizz has replaced the fantastic alt gearing RDF provided with Mythic dungeons that have has no target audience.
There is not one single reason for its removal. Nothing is gained by it. There’s no community being forged by spamming your gearscore. Flying afk to an instance adds absolutely nothing to the game. Every argument these trolls make against RDF has been completely disproven by Classic. They simply can’t accept reality.
If players want the Vanilla experience, go play Classic Era. But RDF is a Wrath feature, and players wanted Wrath. Blizz making Wrath Classic an inauthentic disaster is not some good argument to use in favor of its removal. The original design intent of Classic was: the game as it was. And it worked. But just like many of us worried, Modern Blizzard just couldn’t resist fiddling with a proven working formula. And look what they’ve created: a raid log game infested with bots.
It’s obvious they give zero priority to Classic. It’s just a cash grab to milk the playerbase. Classic Era saw some growth and they lock the servers. It’s a joke. They seem intent on actually sabotaging this project. And they’re doing a great job at that. Something they’re actually good at.
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