Had nothing to do with the warcraft lore of finally being able to kill the litch king right? Do you not realize how strong of a draw that alone was?
You replied to someone who said majority with your 48% as if contesting his claim of majority, so…
Well, considering you don’t think that Cataclysm had anything to do with subs decline I can earnestly say no, this wasn’t a consideration at all as long as your claim stands.
No, I was merely stating that ~48% of the expansion had RDF.
To which you instantly did the thing I was assuming Aurumai would do btw which is funny.
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you can still do that i do it all the time. i list for heroics and i go do dailies. and eventually i get an invite for one of my listed dungeons. sorry it doesn’t teleport you straight to the dungeon. but aside form that its still basically the same thing just without a computer putting the groups together. and people don’t want cross realm stuff in classic for some reason and blizz has said they are making this version for them so just stop with the crying about df.
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I don’t say it because I think that the extra 2% of Wrath’s lifetime and 75% of its content automatically means that dungeon finder shouldn’t be in the game. Though if you want to get into that conversation, I’d be happy to point out dungeon finder being removed from the game is the default option by all objective metrics… 
My point is that, based on the “average experience” that OG Wrath offered, saying that dungeon finder shouldn’t be in the game is at least as valid as saying it should be. It really only boils down to which version is better. And here we are discussing it.
What do you mean about me making something my “entire focus”? You’re incorrect about anything being “my entire focus”, and even if you weren’t, what difference would it make?
At no point in this discussion does it matter how much or how little someone is focused on any topic. It seems like you’re trying to change the scope of the conversation, and I have no idea what purpose you could possibly have for that.
Spoken like a genuine recreational victim. 
I’m not gatekeeping anyone, and FYI, as I pointed out above, this is how the majority of Wrath’s experience worked. Calling it “gatekeeping” to want Classic to be most like the original version of the game is otherworldly absurd.
There is absolutely no evidence that dungeon finder had anything to do with the subscriber count climbing during that time, or changing at any point. Trust me when I say you don’t want to go down that discussion route, because the historical subscriber count doesn’t bode well for dungeon finder if you want to try and draw conclusions like that.
It’s not because we think alike. It’s because the reverse of your argument is obvious and far more compelling, which makes me wonder why you’d say it in the first place.
This conversation only makes sense if we don’t have 3.3.5 talents.
Then why else do you want to force people to socialize with you who have no real interest in socializing with you?
Correct!
I’m merely pre-empting trash like Redheadchild saying that “Cataclysm didn’t lose subscribers, RDF did”.
I thought it was obvious that when you say that the longest content draught in the entire games history didn’t lose subscribers despite RDF being present for all of it makes claims that RDF is what ruined the game dubious at best.
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For a lot of people the last year of wrath was mostly about leveling alts. By the time cata came out many of us had a capped alt of every class. Most weren’t in bis but had bis from dungeons. That’s mostly what rdf means for a lot of us.
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No one is forcing themselves onto you. If you don’t want to join a random group you don’t have to join rdf. If you care about picking and choosing based on class or gear score you can gate keep all you want when you manually form your group.
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Finally someone who gets it.
You got to see more of the game, meet a bunch of folks, play different playstyles and just log in to have some fun.
But no, apparently all of this is bad, chores for you young man!
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That makes 0 sense. Please go ahead and explain if you can.
Anyway, I’d be thrilled for a progressive version of Classic, so don’t think you’re suggesting something I’m opposed to.
You’re not making sense.
What’s with all the red herrings?
Not sure why you implied it then. Trying to set traps for people? It would only benefit you in this discussion if you were to follow the trap to its conclusion and knowingly lie that there was a clear relationship between subs and dungeon finder, so either way, not sure what your goal was there.
Trying to provoke an incorrect response? That seems even worse than setting traps because that just derails the conversation… >.>
I definitely don’t subscribe to the belief that dungeon finder is the thing that ruined WoW, or created the atrocity we call Retail. I think it’s easily one of the top 3-5 things that contributed, but it’s definitely only a piece of the puzzle.
I wasn’t talking to you. And you misunderstand the point anyway, perhaps because I was actually engaging in the extremely illogical and melodramatic perspective of Drinknblink.
Traitorous Critic Fallacy. Is that ever going to stop being used in this thread? 
What’s stopping you from manually forming your own groups, friend? Why are you so upset?
Same, but we don’t have it and RDF is the only FEATURE to be cut out of classic.
People who just want to get their daily badges are being forced to socialize with you cause, reasons I guess?
Nope, just too used to the whole “RDF caused a sub decline” argument and tired of it.
He’s literally used this argument.
Then feel free to ignore that line of what I’m saying.
Oh, nevermind.
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In life the problem is the common denominator (the tool)
It’s not fun. It’s a tedious waste of time. I want to spend my time actually playing the game, not spend my play time looking for people to play the game with. In the time it takes to find a group and run one dungeon I could run 5 dungeons with rdf.
It’s not difficult. It’s just not fun. It’s the equivalent of cold calling people to try to sell them new windows or a pe nile enhancement powder. I get that you’re the type of person who would enjoy working in a call center but I wouldn’t do it for the money and I sure am not going to do it in a game I play for fun. Also since i mostly play healers I already get whispers all the time interrupting my game. The only reason I tell them no is because if I don’t respond they’ll spam me. If I wanted to do a dungeon I’d be doing one. I’m not going to do something to other people that I hate them doing to me.
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Not what i have said.
I have said subs started declining only after rdf was added and that there was a honeymoon period when it was first i troduced that prevented an immediate drop of subs.
But feel free to keep teisting what i have said into something completely different, its working well for convincing blizzard to add rdf right? 
You replied to that when he said the majority did not have rdf. Which implies contesting his claim.
mmhm, conveniently ignoring that Cataclysm may have caused a decline in subs.
See what I mean Aurumai?
I will say this.
Probably the most compelling argument for dungeon finder so far is the idea that there are fewer people to level with now, for whatever reason (I’m guessing the dungeon carry cancer did a number here). I personally love leveling alts and I view 1-68 as being an important aspect of the game, just like raiding, arenas, etc.
I’m beginning to wonder if I’m slowly starting to be more okay with some kind of solution to connect low-level populations across realms, only through the LFG tool. I don’t think I’ll ever be okay with dungeon finder being implemented in any capacity, no matter what the situation is… But maybe, I could see the merit of connecting all factions with less than x population through the LFG tool, or maybe extending that sort of functionality to low-level characters on not-such-small realms, so people still have a serviceable pool of people to play with.
For good reason too.
Your words are only reinforcing my argument, not the one you think you’re making.
I’m advocating for everyone to play only with who they choose to play with, or to allow themselves to be brought into any group who will take them. Freedom to choose, or freedom to not choose. What I am advocating for is literally the opposite of telling people they HAVE to play with me.
What you are advocating for would make it so I had absolutely no choice of who I played with unless I made a conscious decision to use a less efficient, less convenient method with a diminished pool of people to play with. Telling people I wanted them to be forced to use a method where they might end up being grouped with me would align with your claim.
So no, can’t tell if this is just a casual strawman or if you’re really not understanding the freedoms (or lack thereof) that each method would afford to people, but I am not advocating for people being forced to socialize with me, or anyone they don’t want to. Literally the opposite.
Right, but were you perhaps knowingly trying to provoke that argument with your implication?
Then why don’t you just list yourself and forget about it until you get a whisper/invite?
Something tells me you’re wildly misremembering what dungeon finder queue times were like… That, you’re playing on a literal dead realm and basing it on that.
It seems like you’re just trying to provoke an argument that leads nowhere. Though I guess I can’t fault you because this whole dungeon finder discussion leads nowhere. 
The problem with this idea is that we’ve seen how they’d handle this in classic.
Cause they literally just did it for pvp.
And it’s an effing disaster to allow cross realm grouping without the means to do so ingame and leaving you to find partners out of game and doing /inv Aurumai-grobbulus.
I don’t give a flying toss who I do 5 mans with. Not a person I know gives a toss. Cause it’s 5 man.
I’ll keep talking with my guildies years down the line.
The people I just did a 5 man with? Forgotten already, all I remember is that the DK tank was in half blue dps gear and that was kinda sketch.
This time? Yeah, sure. First time? Outta the blue.
That’s why I say, through the LFG tool. Maybe add a checkbox you can tick that says “Show players from other realms”, and then every player listed from another realm would have the Aurumai-Grobbulus suffix in the listings.
And really, I’d only be okay with something like this being implemented in a limited capacity, for a specific group of people. For example, everyone level 1-80 who belongs to a faction with less than 1,000 players, meaning the bottom x% of all Horde or all Alliance by size could be connected, only with each other. And it would definitely have to be faction-based.
Honestly I don’t know how they could implement this for low-level characters without overreaching. Even relatively large realms have a somewhat low number of people leveling actively, so they could still benefit from a system like this, but I wouldn’t want to see all realms or even a large number of realms being connected. Only enough to take the edge off, so to speak.
Great, and I’m advocating for people like you to either invite anyone/everyone indiscriminately or to simply be invited by anyone/everyone indiscriminately.
Extremely small realms aside, using the LFG tool emulates most of the dungeon finder’s functionality, while maintaining the freedom to play with whoever you want. I can just list myself for some content and wait to be invited. If I use it this way, it’s effectively very similar to dungeon finder, which is why I’m so bewildered not only by all the hatred for the tool, but the insistence that dungeon finder is somehow far better.
And again,
Extremely small realms aside
Incorrect. Through out wraths life span I used to run with one of the biggest pvp premade groups called QQ premades. They had battlegrounds being run 24/7 with 3 - 4 channels of AV running all the time. Battlegrounds participation was at its peak in Wrath.
Except for yanno, the gatekeeping aspects of that particular fashion of using it.
And the teleport for low level content ( I dont think anyone gives a flying hoot at max level cause we’re zooming across the world not seeing any of it anyway).
But again, your reach should be limited to where the next player’s nose starts. No one should be forced to play with someone if they don’t want to. I should have the freedom to stack mages, or distribute armor types as evenly as possible, or to hard-reserve a piece of gear, or to ask for people with better gear, or to only bring people who want to complete a specific achievement, or to only bring Gnomes in my own party if I choose to.
No one is denying that this freedom can can be used in a toxic way, but that’s literally how freedom works. The same way that people have the freedom to be jerks in chat and reap whatever rewards they get for it. I don’t see what the point of playing with other people is if you try and strip away their choice to play how they want to play. After all, agency over oneself is what makes interacting with other humans in a video game interesting.
At some point, they may as well just be NPCs, and it’s little wonder why they indeed did feel like NPCs in dungeon finder groups.
I really don’t see what all the fuss is about there. I love traveling to the dungeons and seeing what might happen along the way, or even just that the travel time allows you to chat with your group a bit before you get your hands dirty, or even that the travel time allows you to AFK and wait for a summon if you have some stuff you need to do.
This is actually one thing that I miss about pre-Wrath. Dungeons were longer and so was the journey to get to them. There was so much more flavor to that aspect of the game.