Lmao this is simply untrue. Pvp was incredible popular which is why they even added BGs in the first place.
Even back in the day we had one-sided servers which made queues fairly unbearable for the dominant side, thus, cross realm.
The worst part is that you think this is actually true.
Game design wise it was a mini game.
Blizzard disnt really focus much, if any resources on pvp balance when compared to pve balance. It wasnt until they separate pvp and pve balance in abilities (outside if just CC) that it started getting treated as something more than a mini game. And that happened well after wotlk.
It didnt though. It had a negative effect on pvp, but it didnt hurt community. I had plenty of aerial combat fights due to flying, plenty of drop out of sky and kill (or be the one killed) due to flying and not having the same amount of time to react. It changed world pvp, it was the players that minmaxed it to harm world pvp. And again, pvp was considered a minigame at the time.
That is all they have.
I get why some people want rdf, but the fact they endlessly lie about it is what erks me. “It has no downsides” “you dont have to use it so it wont effect you” exc. I have even suggested a reasonable compromise where they get their cross realm grouping but those who dont want to use it wont feel forced into using it because there would be no bonus rewards that would make it more efficient. Yet they cant seem to get past their own greed/entitlement/laziness/pride (or whichever it is per individual) to even consider a compromise.
The best part is they will blame all the sub loss that wotlkc gas seen on not having rdf, but refuse to eveb accept that part of why wow started to see sub losses (and not the only reason) was rdf being added origionally.
Their feelings get in the way of them having any logical thought.
If pvp was a mini game you’ve just utterly and completely debunked your own “the world feels alive” argument.
I’m gonna be nice and let you decide which one you’re going with, but you can’t go with both.
It did AND it destroyed world pvp.
Do you think world pvp wasn’t part of a community or what? Do you seriously think we weren’t sitting on IRC trashtalking the other faction during the original?
Dude was editing his post, was playing Civ6 and watching his post change in real time.
Speaking of lies, absolutely no one has said RDF has no downsides.
The upsides do, by far and in ridiculous amounts, outweigh those downsides tho.
And classic is wholeheartedly proof of this.
One of your fellow pro rdf has said it quite a few times.
(Its the post right under that one if you take the link, its refusing to link the post i want)
“Exactly all the evidence shows RDF has no downsides and is a huge improvement for pugging dungeons.”
Another example of someone claiming it here.
I want you to look up the word hyperbole.
Because i proved you wrong?
One if them is a very active pro rdf that said it, the ither i linked was someone random, there were more, but didnt think i would need to list all of them for you. I proved you wrong and now you want to claim you were just exaggerating? 
No, so you can actually learn something for once in your life.
The supposed downsides to RDF that you lot keep chirping on and on and on about are already present in the game.
So a hyperbolic statement based on this is saying “there are no downsides” since all the bad crap y’all keep saying is going to happen with RDF is already happening.
No, not all the downsides of rdf are in the game right now.
A downside of rdf is no lasting consequences for being a bad person in game. Without rdf you become known on your realm if you do enough crap. But rdf you wont have to be partied with people on your realm. Lasting consequences dont stop everyone from being bad people in game, but they do stop more than not having lasting consequences.
There is one downside that isnt in the game now that will be with rdf. Thats just one of many.
For your tldr version
Rdf removes the lasting consequences that can occur from only same realm grouping.
Literally in the game right now.
Wasn’t even true in classic.
It hasn’t ever been a thing in classic.
Even more so with name changes and faction transfers being present as paid services.
Oh, I don’t think I was aware you were talking about low-level. I feel you there.
Oh, I’m not saying that the traditional group building guarantees meaningful social interaction. Just that it guarantees some interaction of any sort. However in my experience, meaningful interaction is far more common with traditional group building, whereas people in dungeon finder groups (gradually) were basically just bots that would ignore anything you say.
We’re having very different experiences. There is a stark difference in my experience between traditional groups and dungeon finder groups. Not always, but extremely often. Having played in the eras that people typically consider to be modern Retail for a couple of years, I’m fairly familiar with the the way groups became after dungeon finder was implemented. I’m extremely confident that it would just go that way again if dungeon finder was implemented today. And of course, I acknowledge that I may be a bit friendlier and more helpful to people than the average random person, so for sure I could be a common denominator. But that was also true when I played Retail, and I had gotten used to simply being ignored by the “treadmill bots”.
As for GW2, I’ve never played it. I always wanted to. I remember seeing the box art when I went to stores that had games and thinking it looked sooooooo cool. But in those days, the family PC was so old and weak that it could barely play flash games. 
Or maybe it was the GW1 box I’m remembering…
I mean, if you can quote them for me, I’d be happy to relinquish that one or two idiots may have said that. 
Either way, that’s a gross misrepresentation of the general sentiment of people who don’t want dungeon finder. I have never witnessed someone saying that Retail is only bad because of dungeon finder.
I think you misunderstand; It’s a slippery slope, not a slippery slope fallacy.
It would only be fallacious to make claims of one thing leading to another if there wasn’t some sound logical reasoning for it, or strong evidence. But in this case, we have just about the strongest evidence that’s possible, without being able to time travel: we’ve seen precisely where this road leads because we’ve already experienced it before.
We know what dungeon finder feels like, we know how popular it would be, we know how human nature dictates people would tend to be less social in it. The idea that predicting the future in any capacity is fallacious is a common misconception of the slippery slope fallacy.
It doesn’t change the facts. “Don’t like it, don’t use it” is the traitorous critic fallacy, and it’s not an argument. I see where you’re coming from, but I’m going to keep calling it when I see it.
I’d highly recommend you actually look up what the slippery slope fallacy is. You seem to have a cartoonish misunderstanding of it.
Nice strawmans, but they’re meaningless. We’re not having a discussion about “no changes” or whether Retail stuff belongs in Wrath or not. This thread is about the OP’s misgivings with the LFG tool, and the conversation is largely about whether dungeon finder should be in the game instead.
It must be server-specific. On Grobbulus, it’s used for all kinds of things, not just raids.
Meh. I could see how botting might be slightly easier to do in dungeon finder, but I definitely don’t think that there would be much of a noticeable difference.
It makes absolutely no sense to quote the devs immediately after they implemented the feature… Of course they have literally nothing but good things to say about it, because
And I’m not saying that there aren’t WoW team members who are positive about it today – I’m just saying that cherrypicking words from team members who were in the midst of rolling the system out is just about as useless as a quote can get as far as the argument goes.
It can certainly be argued that dungeon finder might have been a contributing factor, but it would be impossible to say for sure, or to try and glean how much or how little it contributed… There’s literally no data to prove that dungeon finder – specifically – actually caused any loss of subs.
Dumb example. Cross-realm PvP doesn’t function at all like PvE content, and it literally needs cross-realm grouping to function the way it currently does. That’s not the case for PvE in principle.
Dumb examples. Dungeon finder teleports are literally the only fast-travel mechanic in the game (with the partial exception of PvP teleports, but again, couldn’t exist this way without it) that is completely free of costs AND infinitely useable.
Because of that, it diminishes the value and flavor of every other method of travel by trivializing distance, which is an extremely important mechanic in WoW.
Many realms have blacklists.
Does your realm not have some form of blacklist on your realm discord or do you not use discord?
And this goes both ways.
They are claiming wotlkc is losing subs purely because of no rdf.
Its all speculation on our part based on what data is available. But we know blizzard has the data, and they chose no rdf this time around. There has to be some reason for that.
Oh, I totally agree with you there. The irony of it is glaring, especially since they love to call people hypocrits (though they use the word so incorrectly I have a hard time knowing whether it’s trolling or not).
True, though I doubt even Blizzard has an extremely specific idea of dungeon finder’s impact on the subs. I basically have 3 different theories as to why they removed dungeon finder:
I suppose it could be any single one of these, or some combination of them. If we were pro-dungeon finder, the ONLY possible option would be “They want to destroy the game with incompetence and troll us!”
This is their victim mentality. They believe anyone and everyone is specifically trying to damage their happiness and enjoyment of life in every aspect.
I dunno, I don’t feel RDF is awful. It’s kind of the same as how I describe World Buffs. Actually a great idea, but had unfortunate unforeseen consequences that changed the game in ways that some folks didn’t like. I can see how it’s a perspective thing… and even though it’s crazy to me, some people like the WB meta.
While I agree with your assertion, I’m not sure about your reasoning. It absolutely would be good to keep the two games from being the same because I don’t need another retail, I have retail for that 
But I’m not sure that retail is the money grab you think it is. I mean, sure there are things on the shop you can buy, but you in no way need to. In fact, I’ve gone my entire WoW playing life (since 2004, a few breaks here and there) without ever purchasing anything on the cash shop. The only concessions I’ve made are the 6 month sub mounts (because I was going to be subbed anyway) and the expanded editions of expansions (for the heck of it).
Never once have I truly felt pressured to buy anything extra in order to play the game and I’ve been happily getting AotC with my guild of quasi-Heroic raiders and doing M+ as high as I can (usually getting KSM/KSH on the applicable seasons, then maybe a smidge further). WoW has remained probably about the best entertainment to money ratio I’ve had in my life since it began.
This is not to say I don’t have concerns over Blizzard and the game, but none of these relate to their monetization strategy. It’s light, and optional, especially when you compare it to so many other games on the market, free to play or subscription based.
All this to say, when I try to be objective, I just can’t find anything nefarious about this. I really think keeping retail and classic separate is about providing two versions of the game that players love, and any and all changes to Classic (whether we agree with them or not) is Blizzard trying to give us exactly that.
Side note (shhh, don’t tell Blizzard), if me paying an extra subscription fee for WoW Classic meant it could have a real development team with actual funding to develop actual content and features, I would freaking pay this. I’m such a huge proponent of Classic+. The oiginal Vanilla version with extremely tactical class balance change (so we don’t have 20 warriors per raid) and then just a wash of new horizontal progression content (dungeons and raids) with Classic design principles in mind.
Getting kicked in the balls is a social interaction.
I wouldn’t advocate for it happening to anyone.
So exactly like now?
Absolutely no difference whatsoever in my experience.
It’s free to play, you should try it and feel what an actual co-op pve experience feels like when levelling.
No, I’m calling your nonsense out as a slippery slope fallacy cause there is no slope.
Many DISCORDS have blacklists that’re seen by a minority of the servers population. They’re worthless.
No, we’re claiming the game feels dead cause people are raidlogging.